Amtrak Train Symbols on Foreign Roads

I've been wondering about this for a while, but does anybody have any information about what train IDs other railroads assign Amtrak trains. I only know of how CSX and NS does for trains (CSX Pxxx and Amtrak 0xxA), but what about for CN/IC, BNSF, UP, and any other foreign roads Amtrak trains travel on?

I believe metro north rr assigns amtrak trains traveling over their territory their amtrak route number with an A before the number (example: the Lake Shore LTD would appear on departure/arrival boards at MN stations as A48 or A49)

also some freight roads refer to some amtrak trains according to the unit number of the lead locomotive like "Amtrak 701" or "Amtrak 832"

but that all depends upon the railroad...


maybe somebody who works a dispatch/rtc job could advise in better detail

andre wrote:I believe metro north rr assigns amtrak trains traveling over their territory their amtrak route number with an A before the number (example: the Lake Shore LTD would appear on departure/arrival boards at MN stations as A48 or A49)

also some freight roads refer to some amtrak trains according to the unit number of the lead locomotive like "Amtrak 701" or "Amtrak 832"

but that all depends upon the railroad...


maybe somebody who works a dispatch/rtc job could advise in better detail

The Metro-North dispatchers refer to us as the designated train number. When I was qualified on CSX territory, the referred to us with "P." (P194, P052, P067. etc)

Interestingly enough, down here on the NS, Amtrak #171 and #176 are referred to as 013 and 014 respectively(but on CSX they are P171xx and P176xx, xx being the date), while #19 and #20 retain their Amtrak symbols(019 and 020). Not sure of the reasons why though.....

My own PM deadhead move to DC is VRE 034 on the NS, yet when I reach CSX territory I become P320xx, then VRE 320 when I get to Amtrak territory.....

On Pan Am, the train operations managers (non-union equivalent of dispatchers) simply say "ST District 2 North Billerica calling Amtrak train 682, over" (or whatever the number is) when communicating with Downeaster trains on the radio. Likewise, when Amtrak crews are communicating with the Pan Am TOMs, that's how they identify themselves... "Amtrak train 690 calling ST District 1, over," etc.

CP/SOO just uses the public timetable numbers for passenger trains. There are no special symbols, and engine numbers are only used for unscheduled movements.

UP does everything by lead unit number, at least on the St. Louis line - e.g. "Amtk 156 South". IIRC the mechanically transmitted track warrants also have a train symbol printed on them (something really basic like "A [train #] [day of month]") but we never use it for anything. I guess that might be the symbol that appears on the dispatcher's graphical overview. But the lead unit is the official designator, and must appear correctly on the track warrant.

CN/IC also goes by engine number, but it isn't printed on the track bulletins (TGBO's), if I remember right. Those are printed with a train symbol something like "P[train #][couple of extra digits which I never knew the significance of]". The only way the dispatcher knew your engine number was from the mark-up sheet sent to him by the bulletin order operator at CUS. Or if you just told him yourself. He usually didn't really care, anyway.

EricL wrote:CP/SOO just uses the public timetable numbers for passenger trains.

Just to clarify, that's what I was referring to in my Pan Am / Downeaster example -- they use the public timetable numbers.

cobra30689 wrote:Interestingly enough, down here on the NS, Amtrak #171 and #176 are referred to as 013 and 014 respectively(but on CSX they are P171xx and P176xx, xx being the date), while #19 and #20 retain their Amtrak symbols(019 and 020). Not sure of the reasons why though.....

My own PM deadhead move to DC is VRE 034 on the NS, yet when I reach CSX territory I become P320xx, then VRE 320 when I get to Amtrak territory.....

I can probably chime in on why 171 and 176 are 13 and 14 (15 and 16 on the weekends). NS gives 001-041 to passenger trains plus I think it was to not confuse it with NS's 171 and 176. Also, I thought 334 was carried through all the way up to DC even on CSX. Do you know what 323 becomes when it gets on NS?

Bnsf symbols Amtrak trains A XXX S DD ENGINE ID and Direction
Where XXX= train Number
S= Section (usually is a 1)
DD= date of Origin
So, using this convention yesterday's Empire Builder departing Chicago and entering the BNSF via the Joint Trackage at Hastings would be A 7 1 29 AMTK 194 West

MEC407 wrote:

EricL wrote:CP/SOO just uses the public timetable numbers for passenger trains.

Just to clarify, that's what I was referring to in my Pan Am / Downeaster example -- they use the public timetable numbers.

I apologize; I wasn't trying to repudiate nor repeat your post. I was merely providing information about the practices of a few more host RRs. I thought that was what the OP was asking for.

I will also hasten to note that there are the occasional times when this simple public number system has not been such a great idea on the Soo. The situation is this: there is a major, days- or weeks-long service disruption on the Empire Builder route, which prompts Amtrak to run a "stub train" version of the Builder, CHI-MSP only. These stub trains are unofficially referred to as 807 and 808. But say an 807 is sent up one day, and meanwhile the service disruption is cleared up... so the 808 stub train has to return to CHI the next day, but there is also a regular (probably late) 8 coming through on the same day. Therefore it's possible for two separate "Amtrak 8"s to be operating across Soo territory on the same day. I haven't personally worked one of these, so I don't know exactly how they handle it. But their normal practice for 2nd sections of freight trains is just to append a "2" to the front of the train symbol on their CTC board, and refer to the train over the radio as the "second 298" or whatever. Of course with the obsolescence of timetable/train order operation, there are really no "true" sections of trains anymore, but that's just kind of the ad hoc way they do it now.

Another interesting note with regards to the UP is that we often used NPCU numbers (90xxx) as our lead unit numbers for the track warrants and mandatory directives. This was unique because many railroads balk at using cab car numbers in this fashion, insisting that a cab car cannot be an engine for ID purposes. Maybe it's just because their computers can't handle engine numbers longer than 4 digits long! Such outfits would require the use of the number of the actual engine, even though it was trailing rather than leading.

EricL wrote:I apologize; I wasn't trying to repudiate nor repeat your post. I was merely providing information about the practices of a few more host RRs. I thought that was what the OP was asking for.

No apology necessary! The reason I quoted that part of your post was because your mention of "pubic timetable numbers" made me realize that I should have made my original post more clear, for folks who aren't familiar with Downeaster train numbers, that's all.

gp40marc69 wrote:

cobra30689 wrote:Interestingly enough, down here on the NS, Amtrak #171 and #176 are referred to as 013 and 014 respectively(but on CSX they are P171xx and P176xx, xx being the date), while #19 and #20 retain their Amtrak symbols(019 and 020). Not sure of the reasons why though.....

My own PM deadhead move to DC is VRE 034 on the NS, yet when I reach CSX territory I become P320xx, then VRE 320 when I get to Amtrak territory.....

I can probably chime in on why 171 and 176 are 13 and 14 (15 and 16 on the weekends). NS gives 001-041 to passenger trains plus I think it was to not confuse it with NS's 171 and 176. Also, I thought 334 was carried through all the way up to DC even on CSX. Do you know what 323 becomes when it gets on NS?

See...you learn something new everyday! LOL....and 323 becomes 23 when I hit the NS...

EricL wrote: Another interesting note with regards to the UP is that we often used NPCU numbers (90xxx) as our lead unit numbers for the track warrants and mandatory directives. This was unique because many railroads balk at using cab car numbers in this fashion, insisting that a cab car cannot be an engine for ID purposes. Maybe it's just because their computers can't handle engine numbers longer than 4 digits long! Such outfits would require the use of the number of the actual engine, even though it was trailing rather than leading.

The 4-digit limitation makes sense....we use our cab car numbers as an ID for CSX(they are 4 digits).

cobra30689 wrote:

gp40marc69 wrote:

cobra30689 wrote:Interestingly enough, down here on the NS, Amtrak #171 and #176 are referred to as 013 and 014 respectively(but on CSX they are P171xx and P176xx, xx being the date), while #19 and #20 retain their Amtrak symbols(019 and 020). Not sure of the reasons why though.....

My own PM deadhead move to DC is VRE 034 on the NS, yet when I reach CSX territory I become P320xx, then VRE 320 when I get to Amtrak territory.....

I can probably chime in on why 171 and 176 are 13 and 14 (15 and 16 on the weekends). NS gives 001-041 to passenger trains plus I think it was to not confuse it with NS's 171 and 176. Also, I thought 334 was carried through all the way up to DC even on CSX. Do you know what 323 becomes when it gets on NS?

See...you learn something new everyday! LOL....and 323 becomes 23 when I hit the NS...

171 and 176 are 013 and 014, not 13 and 14. 323 becomes 023. There are no two digit train ID's on NS.

On CP/SOO they do not use the Amtrak number exactly officially. On CP/SOO they use the last two digits of the train number followed by an A. So for example...
Amtrak 7 - CP 07A, Amtrak 8 - CP 08A, Amtrak 329 - CP 29A, Amtrak 68 - CP 68A, etc.

On CN the train symbol is similar to CSX, but a tad more complicated. Such as Amtrak 64 operating on the 1st would be P09731 01.
P for Passenger
xxx for VIA's number for that Amtrak Train
3 for Originating In The Great Lakes Operating Region
1 for 1st Section
01 for originating on CN on the 1st.

If the train gets recrewed it would end up being RP09731 01, when the equipment deadheads to the yard, it becomed EP09731 01.

Irishiron wrote:
On CP/SOO they do not use the Amtrak number exactly officially. On CP/SOO they use the last two digits of the train number followed by an A. So for example...
Amtrak 7 - CP 07A, Amtrak 8 - CP 08A, Amtrak 329 - CP 29A, Amtrak 68 - CP 68A, etc.

That is not how the Orders are issued to the train on the CP, or at least not as of 05:23 this morning. They Were still issued to AMTRAK 330 ( the set of orders I saw this morning) Maybe what you are refering to is is how they show up on teh CTC computer., but the orders and manditory directives are still issued to ( and have been for as long as I can remember) the public timetable number ( except when running extra). Maybe, Mr EricL can confirm what he sees today as well.

Is it possible that your CP example is based on the CP's Canadian operating practices and not that of the UP US Dispatchers office practices?

AMTK1007 wrote:

Irishiron wrote:
On CP/SOO they do not use the Amtrak number exactly officially. On CP/SOO they use the last two digits of the train number followed by an A. So for example...
Amtrak 7 - CP 07A, Amtrak 8 - CP 08A, Amtrak 329 - CP 29A, Amtrak 68 - CP 68A, etc.

Is it possible that your CP example is based on the CP's Canadian operating practices and not that of the UP US Dispatchers office practices?

No. That example is based on how the symbols are listed in the computer, and how the RTC sees them. Orders are issued to the Amtrak train number and lead unit because that's how the forms are issued to a non-extra train. Simple as that. Officially, my example are the idents in Canada and the US. If they didn't operate like that, it would conflict with CP's trains.

Such as while 30A (AMTK 330) was receiving orders this morning, 330 (CP 330) was making his way out of Manitoba enroute to Clearing.