URHS wants to save Erie gas-electric #5012

[Otto Vondrak]

The post is adapted from a post on another list I frequent:

This is an appeal for donations to help cover the cost of acquisition and transport of ex-Erie [andex-NYS&W] gas-electric No. 5012. The 5012 is the only piece of Erie steam era motive power to escape from scrap. Presently, the United Railroad Historical Society of N.J., the group who did such a marvelous job restoring the ex-NYC "Hickory Creek," is trying raise enough money to acquire the car and transport it via flatcar from Worthington, OH., to New Jersey for restoration.

The URRHS urgently needs donations. This car racked up many miles in New Jersey (and cars like it also plyed the rails on the Rochester Division in New York). Please, if you have a feeling for historic Erie equipment, or old gas-electrics or New Jersey rail heritage, send a check made out to "URRHS of NJ" for any amount you can spare. The address is: URRHS, 36 Banstead Way, Jackson, NJ 08527-4495.

There is currently no information posted on the URHS web site, but I am sure this will change soon.

-otto-

[Wanderer]

Here we go again!

[John_Henry]

I don't understand why they would raise money for this again.

They have one if not two New York Central E-8's to restore to go with Sandy Creek, and I think there are other 20th Century Limited cars out there. They have invested what, three quarters of a million in Sandy Creek?

Why not just go after a full 20th Century?

The NJ Museum is a dead issue, and they have already chosen to invest in Sandy Creek while giving away NJ artifacts, so maybe they should just go for it?

This isn't a snark, I am serious. They could sell or giveaway everything else to fund purchase or trade for other 20th Century cars.

I would ratheer have seen them restore a Blue Comet consist, but with the massive amount of tax dollars put into Sandy Creek, I say follow through!

I am sure the BN coaches could be traded for NYC cars. Send all the PRR stuff to the RRMofPA or Altoona, or sell it. Trade the F's for more NYC pieces.

Scrap the less rare pieces if they can't be sold whole and part them out. The PRR E's, GG-1, etc are all rusted out and neglected anyway. Sell the CNJ Geeps, give Steamtown the Blue Comet cars...

It could all fall in place rather nicely.

If they realy wanted to think big picture, restore the Mohawk or do what the British are doing and raise funds for a new build. Maybe a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson.

Again, this is not a snark. The Sandy Creek project clearly telegraphed the URHS is willing to spend a lot of money on an out of state piece. I know they took some heat for it, but I say go with it!

JH

[Steamtown Observer]

OK, let's assume this is serious. How about if they answer some questions for potential donors:

1. Where in New Jersey do you plan on storing it/doing restoration? The car currently has significant rust/rot issues due to roof leaks, especially in the engine compartment where the exhaust pipes are missing. It will need to be put under cover right away before it completely rots away.

2. You say it will be transported by flatcar. Because of the weight/height of this car it will not be able to ride on a standard flatcar. Have you made arrangements for the special transportation with NS. Also, the car is isolated from outside rail connections and is inacessible from the outside to have a crane reach it. How do you propose to move it?

3. I understand that the Ohio Railway Museum has given you three different prices. Do you have a written agreement?

4. What is the restoration plan? Cosmetic or operation? If you plan on operating it do you plan on using the Winton gas engine? If so is it possible to get insurance because of the risks involved?

5. Several years ago someone with restoration experience estimated the 5012 would cost $500,000 to restore. How do you plan on raising that money? Since you burned all of your political bridges in NJ what sources of funding will replace the $700,000 in TEA money you used for Hickory Creek.

6. About 7 years ago you raised about $10,000 to "save" the 5012. When you were unsuccessful you took the money and bought a trolley from Portugal with the money - without informing the donors their money was to be diverted. Do you now intend to sell this trolley and use the proceeds towards the 5012?

Someday I fully expect to see URHS featured on NBC News on their "Fleecing of America" segment.

[RAHWAY VALLEY]

About 7 years ago you raised about $10,000 to "save" the 5012. When you were unsuccessful you took the money and bought a trolley from Portugal with the money - without informing the donors their money was to be diverted. Do you now intend to sell this trolley and use the proceeds towards the 5012?

Please get your facts straight before hitting the computer keys.... URHS had nothing to do with the acqusition of the trolley car from Portugal. Rather, it was a member from a different railroad group.

[washingtonsecondary]

Someday I fully expect to see URHS featured on NBC News on their "Fleecing of America" segment.

The Fleecing of America segment is only for misuse of tax payers money. If they don't receive tax payer money, don't hold your breath.

[Trainlawyer]

Okay, before this gets nasty- Some questions for somebody who actually knows the answers.

1. Were any funds actually raised for preservation of the car?

2.If the answer to the above is "Yes, But not $10,000.00," how much was raised?

3. If any earmarked funds were raised, where did they go?

GME

[Steamtown Observer]

Please get your facts straight before hitting the computer keys.... URHS had nothing to do with the acqusition of the trolley car from Portugal. Rather, it was a member from a different railroad group.

Oh, please! The leadership of the Friends organization and the URHS are interlocking. Are you trying to say because the Friends took the 5012 donations and spent it on something else now its ok for the other head of this two-headed monster to ask for money again and pretend the Friends money never existed? We have watched URHS/Friends play their good cop/bad cop game for 15+ years now.

The Fleecing of America segment is only for misuse of tax payers money. If they don't receive tax payer money, don't hold your breath.

Oh, but it is! The $700,000 TEA money that went into the Hickory Creek is Federal Money administered by the Department of Transportation. Also, they are a 501c3 Federally tax-exempt organization. How they raise and spend their money is supposed to be highly regulated in return for the tax exempt status. Many of us have questioned how URHS does business. For example, political lobbying by 501c3 organizations is illegal - a line I believe they have crossed many times. However, organizations like the Sierra Club and Rails to Trails blatently violate this law so don't look for anyone to check out the URHS soon.

[John_Henry]

Oh, but it is! The $700,000 TEA money that went into the Hickory Creek is Federal Money administered by the Department of Transportation. Also, they are a 501c3 Federally tax-exempt organization. How they raise and spend their money is supposed to be highly regulated in return for the tax exempt status. Many of us have questioned how URHS does business. For example, political lobbying by 501c3 organizations is illegal - a line I believe they have crossed many times. However, organizations like the Sierra Club and Rails to Trails blatently violate this law so don't look for anyone to check out the URHS soon.

I was wondering how they could use the Federal funds for this car and now lease it out to a private for-profit company? That's a sidebar, but it seems interesting. Anyway, that's besides the point.

When the URHS decided to spend the money on the beautiful Hickory Creek, they clearly altered their focus from NJ to a broader scope.

That's cool. I think they should follow-it and continue to giveaway the equipment they are not as interested in. I am very serious about them assembling a 20th Century train set.

JH

[Wanderer]

If the URHS has no money, or means of acquiring the funds to relocate, maintain, and or restore what it has, despite much of it's invalidity to New Jersey, then why the heck are they trying to get something else?? It will just end up rotting away like everything else.

This is what I mean by, "Here We Go Again". This is the type of asinine, rediculous irresponsibility that will prevent a museum's creation in New Jersey, even if the legislature ever does come around. And if this piece is acquired and restored properly, what are the chances it will be used only to allow for one guy to relive his younger days; exactly what was done with the Hickory Creek.

And before anyone argues with that, I didn't see the URHS selling tickets to raise funds when the car took it's last little road trip! This is why so many people involved in railroad historical interests in New Jersey have given the URHS NJ a new meaning:

Useless Railroad Historian Suckering of New Jersey! Period.

Down. Soapbox away. Asbestos flame proof suit on. Sorry guys, the truth hurts.

[Otto Vondrak]

Wow. I guess I should leave New York State more often. Didn't realise there was this much discourse regards the URHS. I knew they had their difficulties, but I didnt realise this was the second attempt to raise funds for this car. However, I would prefer that we keep the wild accusations off this thread.

Furhtermore, this thread is not about the Hickory Creek, it's about this Erie doodlebug. Start a new thread if you want to discuss the Hickory Creek.

Would anyone from the URHS care to elaborate on this situation and clear up some of these questions? I think they are valid questions and should be answered before I open up my checkbook or help swing a hammer.

-otto-

[cnj1524]

The URHS is trying,thats alot more than I can say for the
misfits in trenton & the million dollar studies that did nothing,as far as the doodlebug I for one would like to atleast see them try,without help
from useless studies & far wasted money,if somebody thinks they
can do better they should pick up the torch & welder and work
for free like many of them have been doing for many years TRYING!!!

[Wanderer]

Otto, I think you missed my point. Some people are concerned it will become the same situation, in which it will be privately used. Of course I would love to see the Erie Gas-Electric preserved. The matter in question is that I would like to see it preserved by someone capable of doing so.

cnj1524, we've been down this road. Those of us who were at one time doing restoration and donating time to other matters have since moved on due to the URHS's mismanagement and lack of respect for volunteers. If things improve, then maybe some of us will return. But obviously they haven't.

Now instead of starting personal flame wars to avoid the matter, how about someone "in the know" stops dancing around the issues and and answers the questions at hand??

[tiptop344]

Reading the replies posted here reminds me of why I don't think much of many NJ "railfans" who only exist to criticise the efforts of others, especially when the know almost nothing about what is actually being done.

There has been substantially over $12,000 raised. Nowhere enough, but a great start.,
There is a fixed, agreed, price from the current owners.
Transportation provided pro bono has just about been nailed down.
A safe, secure location to do the repair work is being negotiated and it looks pretty good.

Most importantly, there are dedicated people who believe this can be done working hard to do it, and ignoring the brickbats thrown at them by people who cannot get off their south ends to help. They can only be critical.

[pablo]

TipTop, first, it would help if you used your real name.

That aside, since you seem to have some knowledge about the wrokings of what's going on, can you refute what has been said above? That would go a long way towards dealing with some of what's been said. Do some of the above posters have valid points?

Further, saying "transportation's just about nailed down..." doesn't fill me with comfort. I don't need details, but that statement doesn't guarantee anything.

I look forward to your replies.

Dave Becker