Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby jp1822 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:46 pm

In the United States though - the whole sitting backwards is going to be an issue. I can see re-engineering coming about either right before they are put into service or max 3 months after they are put in service. Europeans and elsewhere overseas - they've been used to their seating too long and sort of graduated very fast into it. Society today in the US - much more demanding on "the want my way or else." However, I hate to ride backwards myself and have gotten sick - so consider me in the not liking 50/50 seat arrangement!
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby bgl » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:06 am

I have ridden on plenty of trains that have rear facing seats in the US. Seems... normal enough.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby Nasadowsk » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:00 am

bgl wrote:I have ridden on plenty of trains that have rear facing seats in the US. Seems... normal enough.


Pretty much every commuter train in the NYC area, now, and many other areas in the US.

I actually like riding backwards - easier to sleep.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby bostontrainguy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:30 am

They don't put up with it in Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX5D6YtI7tg
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:56 am

For everyone here who doesn’t like riding backwards, I’m happy to take your tickets from WAS/ALX to anywhere :-D

As for “no coach”, Amtrak could reasonably add a surcharge for “Coach Express”, but that gnaws away at Business Class seating that has essentially a waiting list. Besides, the current Amfleet consists qualify as High Speed Rail at 125mph (200km/h). Barely.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby David Benton » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:47 pm

As long as 50 % are happy riding backwards , Its not a problem.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby AmtrakLocomotiveEngineer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:10 am

bostontrainguy wrote:Still want to complain about the fixed seats and the fact that half the passengers will be forced to ride backwards at 160 mph!

Everybody is going to have to make HUGE adjustments with the new trains, both passengers and crews. Unfortunately, Amtrak is buying these "off the shelf" and basically it's "AS IS".

Most of the engineers are already dreading the change because it's going to be a European design, with center seat in the cab and only one master controller which will be throttle AND brake in ONE LEVER.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby RRspatch » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:28 am

AmtrakLocomotiveEngineer wrote:
bostontrainguy wrote:Still want to complain about the fixed seats and the fact that half the passengers will be forced to ride backwards at 160 mph!

Everybody is going to have to make HUGE adjustments with the new trains, both passengers and crews. Unfortunately, Amtrak is buying these "off the shelf" and basically it's "AS IS".

Most of the engineers are already dreading the change because it's going to be a European design, with center seat in the cab and only one master controller which will be throttle AND brake in ONE LEVER.


Have we actually seen what the Avelia power cars will look like? The TALGO power-cars/cab cars used in Spain are also set up for only one person in the cab. That's the design TALGO wanted to built on the Washington state trains. However it was Amtrak or the FRA or perhaps both that required the ugly two person cab cars you now see on the Cascadia trains. I believe this was done for crew training purposes. I'm not sure just how RENFE trains TALGO crews other than using a simulator.

As far as the one throttle for both power and brake I seem to remember the Metroliner EMU's were setup like that. Perhaps one of the older Amtrak engineers on here can tell just how well it worked or perhaps didn't work.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby Backshophoss » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:30 am

All of the M-series EMU's uses a one handle controller for power and brake functions
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby Tadman » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:10 pm

AmtrakLocomotiveEngineer wrote:
bostontrainguy wrote:Still want to complain about the fixed seats and the fact that half the passengers will be forced to ride backwards at 160 mph!

Everybody is going to have to make HUGE adjustments with the new trains, both passengers and crews. Unfortunately, Amtrak is buying these "off the shelf" and basically it's "AS IS".

Most of the engineers are already dreading the change because it's going to be a European design, with center seat in the cab and only one master controller which will be throttle AND brake in ONE LEVER.


Off-the-shelf means they have been proven to work well in the past. The AEM7 and ACS64 have been pretty darn reliable. As a passenger, I really don't want to be stranded because something unproven has problems.

As for adjustments for crews, I work with situations a lot like this in the crane industry. New crew interfaces and electrical controls can be frustrating because the equipment reaction is totally different. That said, good training helps a lot, and it certainly takes some time to get up to speed. Also, if it was easy to make any train go fast and safe, there wouldn't be an need for trained professionals to do the job. I notice a lot of heavy equipment operators take a lot of pride in their job, and justifiably so. They are experts and are good at figuring out new equipment.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby MattW » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Isn't the ACS-64 setup with a combined power/brake handle? And the SC-44?
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby 8th Notch » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:48 pm

MattW wrote:Isn't the ACS-64 setup with a combined power/brake handle? And the SC-44?


Yes they both have a combined power handle for power and dynamic/regen brake however they still have the traditional separate auto and independent brakes handles. The new Acela will have one handle alone for power and train brakes.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby Tadman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:55 am

Isn't the new Acela/Avelia actually a permanently coupled set of MU cars rather than a power car/coach/coach/power car setup? If there is no locomotive, can you have an independent brake control?
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby 8th Notch » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:26 am

No the setup will be similar to the current HST’s, no powered trucks on the coaches.
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Re: Avelia Liberty: Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Postby bulk88 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 pm

RRspatch wrote:Have we actually seen what the Avelia power cars will look like? The TALGO power-cars/cab cars used in Spain are also set up for only one person in the cab. That's the design TALGO wanted to built on the Washington state trains. However it was Amtrak or the FRA or perhaps both that required the ugly two person cab cars you now see on the Cascadia trains. I believe this was done for crew training purposes. I'm not sure just how RENFE trains TALGO crews other than using a simulator.

I dont think it is for crew training. Delegation of duties, whether railroad operating rules, union agreement, or CFR, in USA says conductor fills out paperwork for the journey, not engineer. Territory familiarization on a host railroad policies/trackage rights means the foreign engineer is escorted by an employee of host railroad when on host property. A one seat cab is more or less a synonym for OPTO in the USA (lets ignore EMU half cabs, they can always ride with the door open and 2nd employee), and OPTO on USA national rail is a unicorn. The Amtrak Subway food program LSA vs contractor employee dispute, OPTO is impossible in USA. So 1 seat cabs, what RR would order them in the USA?

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/propos ... -advocates
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