B&O operations in New Jersey

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B&O operations in New Jersey

Postby firthorfifth06 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:14 pm

What trains and when did the B&O run out of Jersey City
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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby hutton_switch » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:46 am

I had left answering your question to Mr. Herb Harwood, who is an expert on this subject, and who frequents this forum, but so far, he hasn't.

To cover the extensive history in answering your question is for the most part, beyond the scope of this forum, as there are many events that led to the establishment and eventual discontinuation of B&O passenger service out of Jersey City, over about a 70-year period. The primary train out of Jersey City was the Royal Blue.

Mr. Harwood wrote and published a book on this very subject, Royal Blue Line. It is available from the Company Store of the B&O Railroad Historical Society. Click on the link below my signature for this post, which will take you to the Society's web site. On the left top, click on the "Company Store" link, then the "Books" link, and search for stock number 10059. I suggest you contact Mr. Craig Close, Company Store manager, at borhsstore@comcast.net, to see if there are still copies in stock, and for procedures for payment via credit card, if that is the way you'd like to purchase it.
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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby CarterB » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:32 am

Up until 1958, B&O (CNJ/Reading) ran the National Limited, Metopolitan Special, The Columbian, and Diplomat from JC to St. L, the Capitol Ltd and Shenandoah from JC to Chi, and of course the famous Royal Blues JC to WashDC.
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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby BaltOhio » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:20 pm

hutton_switch wrote:I had left answering your question to Mr. Herb Harwood, who is an expert on this subject, and who frequents this forum, but so far, he hasn't.


Thanks, Wade. I didn't know where to start, but you covered it admirably. Basically, B&O ran 8 round trips over the Reading-CNJ route during much of the 20th century, although these were reduced to six near the end in 1958. Through B&O freight trains also operated over the route, but this was done under a standard division of revenue arrangement with the Reading and CNJ, not a trackage rights contract, so they were Reading-CNJ trains east of Park Jct. in Philadelphia and, in steam days, were hauled by RDG and CNJ pooled power.

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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby hutton_switch » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:08 am

BaltOhio wrote:Thanks, Wade. I didn't know where to start, but you covered it admirably.

I too, was originally in a bit of a quandary like you, but decided to take the broader approach, as I knew this wouldn't be answerable in just a few sentences.

As a follow-on to ask you: I originally had two questions regarding the USRA and shortly-beyond years when B&O operated out of Penn Station in downtown NYC. The first was answered at the beginning of the Penn Station chapter in your book when you stated how B&O trains were re-routed to enable access to Penn Station vice Jersey City. My second question is what was the status of the B&O passenger facilities in Jersey City during those years? Did the B&O "mothball" them, or did they turn them over to the CNJ for use? Thanks in advance.
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http://www.borhs.org
Daniel Willard (1860-1942) and Jervis Langdon, Jr. (1905-2004) - Two of B&O's best presidents and managers!
President Leonor Loree (1858-1940) brought the B&O into the 20th century!
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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby BaltOhio » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:58 am

hutton_switch wrote: My second question is what was the status of the B&O passenger facilities in Jersey City during those years? Did the B&O "mothball" them, or did they turn them over to the CNJ for use? Thanks in advance.


Well, the honest answer is that I have no idea. I can only guess that the CNJ simply used whatever tracks had been assigned to the B&O for itself -- if, indeed, there were assigned trracks. Remember that before the B&O went into Penn Station, the traffic/financial arrangements with the Reading and CNJ were different from those in 1926 and afterward. Before that, the B&O trains were handled as normal interline movements, with revenues split among the three railroads and each railroad technically handling the trains as its own while on its particular segment of the route. Cars were pooled, and Reading or CNJ power headed the trains between JC and Philadelphia. Thus in brief, B&O trains arrived and left Jersey City as CNJ trains. I don't believe the B&O had any contract with the CNJ for specific space in the JC terminal in that period, although possibly it did.

But beginning in 1926, B&O used the Reading and CNJ lines under a direct trackage rights arrangement, meaning that they were B&O trains all the way through. Presumably the B&O then had a formal contract with the CNJ to provide specific terminal facilities, use of the ferries, and so on. The setup was changed again at the end of 1941, and reverted to a modified version of the original interline arrangement, but with specific provisions allowing B&O greater control over operations and eliminating the original concept of pooling equipment. So, presumably again, there was a contract for use of the terminal facilities.
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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby BaltOhio » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:34 pm

An added thought: There was no particular need for assigned tracks at JC terminal before the bus service began in 1926. But the buses required the removal of two tracks at the terminal's north end to provide a driveway up to the platforms.
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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby Statkowski » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:34 am

In addition to the bus driveway up to the platforms at Jersey City, there was a bus turntable installed so that the buses could turn around to exit. Small turntable, just big enough to hold a bus.
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Re: B&O operations in New Jersey

Postby David Hutchinson » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:25 pm

B&O power began running on unit coal trains into Port Reading, NJ, around November, 1963. Power was sometimes mixed with RDG power. In the early 1970's, B&O and sometimes C&O power would come into Port Reading on a piggyback train that originated on the B&O in Philadelphia. This train was later changed to originate out of Port Reading. The unit train use of B&O power lasted until late in 1964.
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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby Minneapolitan » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:47 pm

Where did the Staten Island Railway fit in with the B&O? I've heard there was some historical connection, at least, between the two. I know they went as far west as Cranford where they connected with CNJ. How did they operate?

Statkowski wrote:...there was a bus turntable installed so that the buses could turn around to exit. Small turntable, just big enough to hold a bus.


Hehehe...cool!
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Re: B&O operations in New Jersey

Postby R,N, Nelson » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:17 am

The B&O only operated the through trains already listed to Jersey City as part of a B&O, Reading, CNJ agreement for through trains between Washington and Jersey City. Add to the through trains already listed: Trains 523/504, The Marylander.

But trains such as extras and troop trains (MAIN Trains) where not part of the through agreement. The through trains had B&O, Reading and CNJ crews, assigned on a percentage basis that worked through between Washington and Jersey City. Only B&O power was used on the through trains after 1926.

Also, the B&O/CNJ had a labor agreement for using both crews to service the car floats at Jersey City.

Mail and Express Trains 29 and 32 also operated to/from Jersey City but were not part of the through agreement. They would have Reading or sometimes CNJ power (and crews) east of Philadelphia. When the B&O operated directly into Penn Station those few years, the Mail and Express trains remained at Jersey City.

The bus turntable was rarely used by the final series of buses purchased from 1949-1951(Whites) since they had a sharper turning radius and they simply jogged around in the driveway to reverse direction. The turntables were hand operated which, no doubt, was another reason why the buses in the last series avoided them.

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Re: The B&O in NJ

Postby BaltOhio » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:35 pm

[quote="Minneapolitan"]Where did the Staten Island Railway fit in with the B&O? I've heard there was some historical connection, at least, between the two. I know they went as far west as Cranford where they connected with CNJ. How did they operate?

The Staten Island Rapid Transit, as the Staten Island Ry. was called then, was a wholly owned B&O subsidiary and was operated as a B&O division. B&O maintained a harbor transfer terminal at St. George that included coal piers, export-import merchandise piers, and carfloat and lighter piers. Freight cars were interchanged at Cranford between the SIRT and B&O-route trains (which were actually operated as CNJ trains at this point) and handled over the SIRT by its own power or by leased B&O power.
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