SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby Nasadowsk » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:07 am

dcipjr wrote:I've heard that in other countries, the low bid is automatically thrown out. Wish SEPTA could do that. I'd much rather see the Bi-Levels built by Bombardier.


It doesn't matter. By law, they have to take the lowest responsive bid, which this one was judged as. Will it be a disaster? Almost certainly. Will the new cars suck? Probably (though honestly, the BBD cars aren't anything special either). Are there better builders? Sure - I can name a few off the top of my head (ok, here ya go: Siemens, Stadler, Alstom, Kawasaki, and if you really insist, Bombardier)

If SEPTA tosses this bid, they're open to big lawsuits from just about everyone. And, realistically, if they re-bid, CCRC knows what to do to make their bid better next time. We went down this path with Rotem already.

I've never heard of a situation where the lowest responsive bidder was automatically thrown out. There's no reason. The technical evaluation should weed out the ones that can't do it
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby JeffK » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:03 am

To quote Jim Saksa's article, "The [cars] would be the company’s first bilevel train contract in the United States, and the first time it would manufacture cars for commuter rail."

Once again, into the abyss.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby chrisf » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:34 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:I'm not surprised someone undercut BBD.

CRRC's bid for the MBTA rapid transit cars was just over half of Bombardier's bid. $566 million for CRRC, $1.08 billion from Bombardier. I assume CRRC is lowballing the SEPTA contract too in hopes that they'll be able to get more commuter rail business in the future but I have no faith that either the MBTA or SEPTA cars from CRRC will be anything close to reliable or well-made. Hyundai-Rotem's work on MBTA commuter rail cars was poor too.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby The EGE » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:17 pm

CRRC is the 2015 merger of CNR and CSR - each of which were some of the largest rolling stock manufacturers in the world. They've built over 700 EMUs for Argentina in recent years, and all appearances and rumors thus far hold that they're doing a substantially better job with the MBTA heavy rail stock than Rotem did with any of their US orders.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby deathtopumpkins » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:10 am

The EGE wrote:CRRC is the 2015 merger of CNR and CSR - each of which were some of the largest rolling stock manufacturers in the world. They've built over 700 EMUs for Argentina in recent years, and all appearances and rumors thus far hold that they're doing a substantially better job with the MBTA heavy rail stock than Rotem did with any of their US orders.


What rumors would those be? They haven't even finished building the factory in Springfield yet!
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby mcgrath618 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:44 pm

Another horrid decision by the higher-ups at SEPTA. I'm with everyone else here, Bomby or die.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby glennk419 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:19 pm

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby ExCon90 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:58 pm

Hey, it works with computers ...
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby Limited-Clear » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:31 pm

Looks like judgement has been passed before production even begins, true that history has the potential to repeat itself, but let's wait and see what unfolds.......
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CRRC wins contract

Postby tommyboy6181 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:06 pm

CRRC is making inroads in the US. The Chinese based rail giant has won contracts in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, and now in Philadelphia. Even more interesting is how far they undercut Rotem.

Here's the article that talks about the 45 new cars on the way:
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/t ... tract.html
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby mcgrath618 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:15 am

If the cars offer something substantial over the competitors besides price, I would be more willing to accept them. Something like onboard bathrooms that aren't a disgrace, WiFi, etc.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby R3 Passenger » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:22 pm

Getting railcars with useable bathrooms on SEPTA will only ever be a pipe dream. SEPTA had bathrooms on its Bombardier cab cars, but always had them locked and recently removed them. As long as SEPTA does not have the facilities to clean and maintain railcar bathrooms, there will never be bathrooms. As long as SEPTA has more critical infrastructure needs to be met, such as SFCs at Wayne Junction, outlying substations, and crumbling platforms, bridges and stations, you can bet there will be nothing spent towards the infrastructure needed to maintain railcar bathrooms.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby glennk419 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:52 pm

mcgrath618 wrote:If the cars offer something substantial over the competitors besides price, I would be more willing to accept them. Something like onboard bathrooms that aren't a disgrace, WiFi, etc.


Forget lavatories on SEPTA rolling stock. As for other amenities, I believe the cars are supposed to be equipped with WiFi and seat side power outlets, but those would be written into the spec for all bidders and would not differentiate one manufacturer over another.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby sammy2009 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:59 am

glennk419 wrote:
mcgrath618 wrote:If the cars offer something substantial over the competitors besides price, I would be more willing to accept them. Something like onboard bathrooms that aren't a disgrace, WiFi, etc.


Forget lavatories on SEPTA rolling stock. As for other amenities, I believe the cars are supposed to be equipped with WiFi and seat side power outlets, but those would be written into the spec for all bidders and would not differentiate one manufacturer over another.


I think they are supposed to be equipped with WiFi and Power Outlets. I'm 90% certain. I seen something about it in the RFP . Also the person who wrote the article on philly.com i think, about the contract had some things mixed up. He said that Hyundai ROTEM was the most expensive and Bombardier was the second. Bombardier scored the highest out of the two for the technical and engineering, and that SEPTA could possibly go to Bombardier if they wanted to based on something of the technical and engineering aspects i believe. I know alot of fans are upset about the Chinese company possibly getting the award. Its understandable why, but i guess we will have to wait and see this out.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby glennk419 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:51 am

I was really hoping that Bombardier would have gotten the contract. I've ridden the NJT multilevels many times and think that they are well built, comfortable and efficient. I believe they also tested on SEPTA, at least through the tunnels, to check for clearances and they are obviously a tried and proven product.
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