Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby BandA » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:31 pm

Lets say you built a replacement stadium above Penn Station. How would you build it with fewer obstructions?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby andrewjw » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:32 pm

Why are you building the replacement stadium above Penn? MSG has moved several times before and could easily move again.

More modern, lighter materials (e.g. less concrete) would probably result in a much lighter structure.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Nasadowsk » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:45 pm

andrewjw wrote:Why are you building the replacement stadium above Penn?


Because a stadium is pretty much the perfect use case for a transit hub? People from everywhere getting to a point then back to wherever. MSG simply has the best transit connectivity of any major stadium in the US, period. Why throw that out?

MSG is probably in the best place possible for a stadium in NYC - look at what a mess the GWB gets during Yankees games, or the roads around CitiField(tm), or the US open, etc.

The air above roughly street level at Penn is useless for transit anyway. There's already way too much retail in NYC. Might as well put a stadium up there and make at least some money. All the old headhouse did was add a big heating/cooling/maintenance bill that the PRR didn't need.

What else would you put there? The real estate is simply way too valuable to leave undeveloped. You're not tearing down any landmark to redevelop it, so why the hell not put a better MSG in its place?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:35 pm

The MSG overbuild forced many support columns thru the platforms at track level and created the "rabbit warren" effect at the concourse levels.
The current bldg has been renovated way too many times to "upgrade" the facility with not so great results.
Believe NYC said it was time for MSG to move on to another site nearby.
Multi use office/apartment space,along with a open atrium space should replace MSG.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby gokeefe » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:25 pm

Backshophoss wrote:Multi use office/apartment space,along with a open atrium space should replace MSG.


I completely agree. MSG is actually underutilizing prime space that could see far greater benefit from higher density development.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby BandA » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:40 pm

Could a "higher density development" be lighter than a replacement MSG? With fewer support posts?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Jeff Smith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:07 am

Could a new MSG be built as part of Penn South?

In any case, though, demo of MSG would be painstaking, and really, what would you put there? An office tower? Hotel?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby gokeefe » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:27 am

Yes, offices, hotel and potentially some residential. All of it would be nearly certain to be highly profitable.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Jeff Smith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:35 am

MTA sits on a ton of real estate; they should be able to monetize it instead of subsidizing the Dolans.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby JamesRR » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:29 pm

Jeff Smith wrote:Could a new MSG be built as part of Penn South?

In any case, though, demo of MSG would be painstaking, and really, what would you put there? An office tower? Hotel?


One architect had a rather interesting plan - keep the Garden, but rip out the old Felt Forum theatre (now the Theatre at MSG). This theatre is actually what sits right above Penn's current waiting area. The Garden sits much higher.

Ripping the theatre out would allow the ceiling of the waiting room to be opened up more to the sky.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:02 pm

JamesRR wrote:One architect had a rather interesting plan - keep the Garden, but rip out the old Felt Forum theatre (now the Theatre at MSG). This theatre is actually what sits right above Penn's current waiting area. The Garden sits much higher.

Ripping the theatre out would allow the ceiling of the waiting room to be opened up more to the sky.

That was one of my favorite plans out of the whole bunch. Simple, yet effectively opens up a few floors' worth of overhead. If the Dolans had wanted to keep a theater, a rather large one would fit nicely into the old Post Office.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby BandA » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:15 pm

Would removing the theater allow support posts to be removed from the track level?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:48 pm

BandA wrote:Would removing the theater allow support posts to be removed from the track level?

I'm not an architect or structural engineer and don't have the MSG/PSNY plans, but probably not.

The ideal would be to take off the entire overburden, open it back up to track level as was done in 1964, and start over.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby JamesRR » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:58 am

BandA wrote:Would removing the theater allow support posts to be removed from the track level?


Who knows? Would have to be investigated. But mind you, there are ways to transfer loads that could allow more space to be opened up. It's a cage of steel beams and columns that support all of the structures (don't forget, MSG is on a shock absorber that separates it from the theater).

At any rate, it would allow so much to be opened up, virtually creating a full entrance to Penn on 9 Ave between 31 and 33 Streets. A proper entry point, feeding directly into a multi-story waiting room. Basically restoring a touch of how the old room functioned.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby gokeefe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:40 pm

JamesRR wrote:Basically restoring a touch of how the old room functioned.


I think "function" is the key word in all of this. Madison Square Garden was justified because the function of Penn Station as a travel center was believed to have gone by.

"They" were wrong and now the mistake is being undone.
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