Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby JamesRR » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:19 am

EuroStar wrote:
frequentflyer wrote:http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cuomo-touts-1-6b-train-hall-project-penn-station-article-1.3420953
Does the old Post Office sit above Amtrak's tracks? If not, how is that going to work?

Yes, the post office sits above the west ends of most platforms. It is good to see something finally being done. Unfortunately they are building the station for the wrong railroad. Given the location the natural users are NJTransit and Amtrak, not LIRR.


Actually, it's really only useful for Amtrak and LIRR, as there is no access to tracks 1-4, of which NJT exclusively uses. And since the LIRR has better access from the original Penn Station, it's only useful for Amtrak.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby andegold » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:08 pm

To say that LIRR has better access from the original station is more than just a little short-sighted and disingenuous. If you work west of 7th Avenue or need to take the A/C/E 8th Avenue Subway to get to your final destination the West End Concourse and the new train hall in the Post Office will be much more convenient. Something else that has been glossed over for years in this discussion is the concept of having to walk further to get to these stairs. If your preferred car location is the west end of any given train then you are, one way or another walking just as far or further to get there regardless of whether you enter the station on Seventh Ave and descend immediately to tack level, enter at Seventh Ave and fight the crowds to get to the West End or the Main Amtrak Concourse or walk above ground to Eight Avenue and descend to track level amidst a new bright and airy station. The western end of the train isn't moving and will be, as it always has been, west of those stairs.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby frequentflyer » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:56 pm

Image

Image

[imghttps://42mzqz26jebqf6rd034t5pef-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016-10-18-PROPOSED_EXISTING_STATION-02-01-645x363.jpg][/img]

Image

https://archpaper.com/2016/11/penn-station-proposals-opportunity/#gallery-0-slide-0

So does the new Moynihan Station sit over Amtrak's tracks or not? From the articles I am seeing on this, the answer is not good.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby andrewjw » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:21 am

As you can even see in the 3D rendering, platforms on tracks 5-18 (i.e. all of Amtrak) look to reach past 8 Ave some amount, and I suspect tracks 7-16 (almost all Amtrak service except Emprire Corridor) will have direct connections; tracks 17+ and 5-6 will have a staircase like the staircase from the current Amtrak concourse to the far low numbered tracks in the NJ transit concourse (except to/from WEC instead). (I don't have evidence to back this plan up except for snapshots of renderings like 2:27 in the newest video.)
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby EuroStar » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:20 am

frequentflyer wrote:So does the new Moynihan Station sit over Amtrak's tracks or not? From the articles I am seeing on this, the answer is not good.

Moynihan Station sits over the railroad tracks. Just not all of them. As it has been pointed out before, the platforms for tracks 1-4 do not even reach much under 8th Avenue. The platforms for some of the high numbered tracks, 19-21, do reach completely under 8th Avenue, but not much beyond, so direct escalators/stairs to them from the new train hall cannot be reasonably build. For 1-4 and 19-21 the best you can do is the West End Concourse (WEC) as it currently exists. It appears that NJT commuters do not utilize the WEC for departures because if their train happens to be on one of tracks 1-4 they cannot reach it from the WEC. I suspect that LIRR commuters will feel the same -- why wait in the new train hall if your train can be on one of 19-21 and you cannot reach those directly from the new train hall? Isn't it easier to must wait inside the WEC anyway? As Amtrak trains practically never use tracks 1-4 and 19-21, Amtrak riders might find the train hall convenient and also less crowded /more pleasant than the existing waiting areas.

Now why do I think that they are building this for the wrong railroad? The platforms for tracks 9-14 are long. They are so long that frequently two trains will be stopped behind each other on the platforms even now. Not every two trains will fit behind each other on the platforms, but many of the shorter sets do fit together. Given that Penn South and any other station expansion are so expensive as to be pipe dreams that will not happen even by the time a current 25-years old commuter retires, stopping multiple trains on the same platform is the cheap way to add capacity to the station. The easiest way to do this is to stop a NJT train on the west side of say track 9 and a LIRR train on the east side of the same track. The NJT train comes from the west, drops off the passengers, performs a platform turn and heads back out west. The LIRR train comes from the east, drops off passengers, performs a platform turn and heads back out east. One can try to do this with Amtrak trains in the mix, but it is much harder because, other than the Keystones and the Acelas, all Amtrak trains need to go through the station because they are either through trains or need to loop at Sunnyside. It should be clear now why I think that the west side of the station needs to be for the railroad that serves points west and the east side of the station should be for the railroad that serves points east. Of course, you can try to do the double train thing with two LIRR trains, but it does seem more cumbersome and getting people to board the correct train is harder -- they will be confused which one is the first one and which one is the second. If the two trains have different logos and equipment the way NJT and LIRR do, the potential for confusion is much less.

As for the ReThink NYC plan, it is a pipe dream. MSG is where it is and its columns are in the way of any track reconfiguration of the type they are proposing. Also where are the trains going to go while construction is going on? Some temporary station? By the time you include temporary station somewhere in Manhattan, buying out MSG, the cost of construction itself and the needed new rolling stock and other improvements to allow through running the way they are proposing to do we are talking about $50+ billion. Where is that money coming from?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby JamesRR » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:53 am

frequentflyer wrote:Image

Image


So does the new Moynihan Station sit over Amtrak's tracks or not? From the articles I am seeing on this, the answer is not good.



That "proposed" diagram isn't official. It's just someone's rendering for a bidirectional proposal for Penn Station.
The official Gateway proposals have tracks 1-4 platforms slightly extended west, but not enough to even make it under 8 Ave.
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Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby TCurtin » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:38 pm

trainhq wrote:(although the inscription on the top, "..neither rain nor hail nor dead of night shall stop these carriers from their appointed rounds..." would not necessarily apply to Amtrak (or the LIRR!)). .


Is that ever true!!!! (As those of us who are around every time a blizzard is predicted know all too well)

Doesn't apply to the USPS anymore either
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Defiant » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:23 am

hs3730 wrote:Governor Cuomo released a promotional video for the new station on 8/17: Moynihan Station Video


This is practically his campaign for President:). Any idea who provided 600 billion in private money and what they are getting for it? I noticed that NJT is no where in the picture. I guess NJ residents are left to enjoy the exiting station...

Anyone knows what is in the actual Post office building now? The actual Post office takes up no more than 20% of the building area. Wouldn't whoever or whatever occupies the rest of that building have to move?

I wonder why if they go through the trouble of removing the floor slab, they don't open up the actual train tracks to light and make them visible from everywhere. That is what pretty much all European countries do; not sure why this is not done here.
With the presented design, the train tracks will still be in the darkness, from what I see. That is a major shortcoming, IMHO.

My preference would've been top move MSG to the top of Post Office building and then rebuild the actual Penn station. Similar to what NYT advocated earlier this year. But I guess Cuomo went for instant gratification...
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby electricron » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:10 pm

Defiant wrote:This is practically his campaign for President:). Any idea who provided 600 billion in private money and what they are getting for it? I noticed that NJT is no where in the picture. I guess NJ residents are left to enjoy the exiting station...

Anyone knows what is in the actual Post office building now? The actual Post office takes up no more than 20% of the building area. Wouldn't whoever or whatever occupies the rest of that building have to move?

I wonder why if they go through the trouble of removing the floor slab, they don't open up the actual train tracks to light and make them visible from everywhere. That is what pretty much all European countries do; not sure why this is not done here.
With the presented design, the train tracks will still be in the darkness, from what I see. That is a major shortcoming, IMHO.

My preference would've been top move MSG to the top of Post Office building and then rebuild the actual Penn station. Similar to what NYT advocated earlier this year. But I guess Cuomo went for instant gratification...


The NYT doesn't have to find a way to pay for its proposal, the governor and mayor do.

In every European example where tracks are exposed to natural light, there's nothing substantial built above the tracks.

I wouldn't consider the existing plan instant gratification, it's taken over 10 years of planning and scheming to get to where it is today. Eventually, MSG will be replaced with something new. Only the future knows what it will be.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby andrewjw » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:28 pm

Defiant wrote:I noticed that NJT is no where in the picture. I guess NJ residents are left to enjoy the exiting station...


NJ hasn't contributed funding, not even funding for a tracks 1-4 WEC. They're being left out on purpose. However, the video mentions renovating existing LIRR spaces to be more open once the new concourse opens - the same could be done to the NJT/Amtrak space, building a new high-ceiling waiting area. I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby JamesRR » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:56 pm

Because NJT uses tracks 1-4 exclusively, the new station isn't practical for them. But because the WEC is so close to the building, it does make sense for LIRR.

I imagine some of the benefits of the revamped existing Penn will be appreciated by NJT riders who pass through.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby David Benton » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:20 am

We are talking multi year , multi billion $$$ projects . Surely it is possible to change which agency uses which platforms?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Greg Moore » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:52 am

To a certain extent, yes and no.

Given they're stub tracks, 1-4 can pretty much be used ONLY by NJT. Amtrak can reach them,but then needs to set up its trains for push-pull.

Tracks 5-8 (I think actually 9 or 10) are the only ones Amtrak can reach from Albany bound trains (that aren't push-pull), so that limits them there.

So you can change some usage, but you're limited.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby BandA » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:25 am

electricron wrote:...Eventually, MSG will be replaced with something new. Only the future knows what it will be.
Would a new MSG have fewer support posts into the track level?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby gokeefe » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:34 am

That depends on what, if anything, is above.
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