Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby nova08 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 pm

Maybe I'm a sentimentalist, but can't we just stick with Penn Station?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby ExCon90 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:48 pm

I wouldn't worry--that's what would probably happen no matter what they change it to officially. Who transfers at Lautenberg Station?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Tadman » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:33 am

nova08 wrote:Maybe I'm a sentimentalist, but can't we just stick with Penn Station?


Someone should have said that in 1964. Today's Penn is a hot mess and not architecturally significant. Picture a small town airport buried under a sports dome with 20 subway stations buried below said small town airport at rush hours in New York and you basically get the situation.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby EuroStar » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:45 am

Ken W2KB wrote:
CLamb wrote:Those artist's conception drawings in the Crains article show an ugly looking Moynihan Station. I don't think its style could clash more with that of the Farley building. Is public comment going to be sought on the design?


If public comment is sought on the style, it probably would add at least a year or more delay to the project, to evaluate, respond and effect changes based on comments, and likely increase the cost.

Forget about the style. From what I have seen they are going to make the blunder of not planning (1) to extend the West End Concourse access to tracks 1-4 and (2) make the postal platform accessible and usable for passenger service. Both seem to be due to lack of NJ involvement in the project as they directly benefit only NJT. The benefits to Amtrak and LIRR are only indirect in having to deal with fewer NJT passengers and trains elsewhere in the station. The postal platform can only be utilized after the Gateway tunnels are completed, but if they do not plan for passenger access from the building above to it now (stair locations, elevator, etc.) it will never happen. The postal platform is a cheap way to add platform capacity without building Penn South, but there is no indication that anyone is thinking that far ahead especially given that the project is spirit-headed by Cuomo and that platform does not directly benefit LIRR. This is where public comments might actually make useful change to the project, but I really doubt that there will be public comment period as an Environmental Analysis is not required for buildings.
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Re: West End Concourse Opens

Postby JamesRR » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:19 pm

adamj023 wrote:
geico wrote:
hioo1 wrote:Are they planning to extend the concourse to tracks 1-4?


I thought it wasnt physically possible to extend the WEC over to Tracks 1-4


It is physically possible and an extension plan to tracks 1-4 was an option of the project and diagrams were drawn up which is found on the Moynihan station project website. As they build out the train hall, they will decide if it is in their best interest to add the extension or not depending on usage of those tracks in the future. NJ Transit has not committed to West End Concourse so as of now its unclear what will happen. The new concourse handles all LIRR and Amtrak trains as of now.
.


Do you have a direct link to the plans? I couldn't find anything on the Moynihan sites.

Looking at the layout at Penn the other day, is it really possible to extend the concourse to tracks 1-4? It appears the 8th Ave IND subway is in the way, and going under it looks like a clearance conflict with the Penn tracks. The entrance gates to the A train, while under the 8th Ave line, sit north of Track 21, so there's no conflict there.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby EuroStar » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:53 am

JamesRR wrote:Do you have a direct link to the plans? I couldn't find anything on the Moynihan sites.

Looking at the layout at Penn the other day, is it really possible to extend the concourse to tracks 1-4? It appears the 8th Ave IND subway is in the way, and going under it looks like a clearance conflict with the Penn tracks. The entrance gates to the A train, while under the 8th Ave line, sit north of Track 21, so there's no conflict there.


Take a look at the following link https://cdn.esd.ny.gov/subsidiaries_projects/msdc/Data/GPP/GPPAttachmentA.pdf. Down right it says "potential future construction not in scope" and points to the connections to platforms 1 and 2. Also note that what was currently built is not what is shown on the graphics -- the built portion does not go as far south as the graphics. Note that certain columns appear to be in the way of these connectors which is why I doubt that they will ever be built because of ADA -- there is no space for elevators or enough width of the passages. While the subway tracks are not shown, I believe that you are not correct and that they are not in the way -- notice the location of the stairs in these connectors -- they go down and then pass under the IND line at Penn platform level.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby JamesRR » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:28 am

I see. Interesting - yes, not sure they went that far south with the concourse, I'll have to look next time I'm there how far it actually extends south. But it seems like they devised a way to snake under the subway (which is basically the red dotted line marking 8 Ave) by merely building individual passageways to each platform. They'd obviously be very narrow as they connect with the western tip of the platforms. But technically it would connect the concourse. I guess they figured it wasn't worth it for 4 tracks.

Also interesting is to see how many tracks will actually be accessible from the main Post Office building - about 10, it seems (7-16). Will only be useful for Amtrak really.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby frequentflyer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:31 am

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cuo ... -1.3420953

Does the old Post Office sit above Amtrak's tracks? If not, how is that going to work?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Allouette » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:55 am

Comparing the "Attachment A" map to Amtrak's map used in the PSNY status reports shows that the plan is for the platforms for tracks 1-4 to be reachable from the "Phase 1 area to be constructed". I think the intent is still to have NJT have its own concourse in the current Penn Station footprint.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby EuroStar » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:29 am

frequentflyer wrote:http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cuomo-touts-1-6b-train-hall-project-penn-station-article-1.3420953
Does the old Post Office sit above Amtrak's tracks? If not, how is that going to work?

Yes, the post office sits above the west ends of most platforms. It is good to see something finally being done. Unfortunately they are building the station for the wrong railroad. Given the location the natural users are NJTransit and Amtrak, not LIRR.

Allouette wrote:Comparing the "Attachment A" map to Amtrak's map used in the PSNY status reports shows that the plan is for the platforms for tracks 1-4 to be reachable from the "Phase 1 area to be constructed". I think the intent is still to have NJT have its own concourse in the current Penn Station footprint.


As for making tracks 1-4 reachable -- forget it. It will happen only if Penn South gets constructed and that seems unlikely to happen by at least 2070. You and I will not be around then. While it was possible to devise connections to the platforms for 1-4 now, the general plan is that construction of Penn South will allow extending tracks 1-4 west making the platforms reach under the Phase 1 West End Concourse. Problem with expanding them now is that the subway under 8th Avenue is in the way.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby electricron » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:35 am

In other words, the subway has to disappear or be moved.
Is building it deeper ecomically feasible?
If yes, who is going to pay for it?
If no, why was the subway built blocking future expansions of Pennsylvania Station?
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby hs3730 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:26 pm

Governor Cuomo released a promotional video for the new station on 8/17: Moynihan Station Video
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby EuroStar » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:44 am

There is no need to move the subway. The subway was not built to block further expansion of Penn Station. Way back then nobody ever expected that Penn Station will need expansion.

Take a look at page 12 here https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/97/493/Gateway%20Tunnel%20Project.pdf. Note how they are proposing to change the access to current track 1 (compare with current track configuration). That allows them to enlongate the platforms for tracks 1-4 to the west (they are also proposing to enlongate them to the east). Once the platforms reach under 8th avenue and the subway, connecting them to an extended West End Concourse is easy. Note that that one connecting track is also supposed to give access of from the old tunnels to Penn South Station. The only annoying thing in this grandiose plan of theirs is that Penn South will never happen for lack of money and inability to buy-out the whole block. At least not in my lifetime.
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby gokeefe » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:40 pm

hs3730 wrote:Governor Cuomo released a promotional video for the new station on 8/17: Moynihan Station Video


Wow ...
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Re: Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby Backshophoss » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:03 pm

Wonder who will "buy in" to the "partnerships"??
I see a bond issue vote in NY State's future. :wink:
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