Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, gprimr1, Amtrak67 of America, Tadman

Penn Station Renovation & Expansion & Moynihan Station

Postby AFTower » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:06 am

Here we go again!
http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=27581 :wink:


NEW YORK — After months of negotiations — and years after it first pulled out of the project — Amtrak reached a preliminary agreement to move to an annex of Pennsylvania Station planned for the James A. Farley Post Office Building, state, federal and railroad officials announced on Sunday. The deal, whose specifics have yet to be finalized or released, would clear one of the biggest hurdles facing Moynihan Station, which was first proposed more than 15 years ago and has struggled ever since.
Last edited by Jeff Smith on Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Retitle
AFTower
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby Nasadowsk » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:21 am

Oh god no.

Let that stupid idea sit where it belongs - in the trash can.

If they do ANYTHING to NYP, it should be a total tear down (to track level) and replacement, ON the existing site, with a new MSG above it.

The old Penn's gone (well, not really), it's been gone so long that only a bunch of wackos and foamers care about it anymore. It's been gone nearly as long as it stood.

Build a new station, designed for today's realities in traffic, and then build a new MSG (just as badly needed) above it.

Blowing a billion and a half to destroy a Post office next door, to 'recapture the glory' of a train station most folks never saw and don't care about anyway, is stupid.

While we're at it, why don't we tear down that 'modern, ugly, grotesque' building on 42nd and Park, and 'recapture the glory' of the original Grand Central Station?

NY state has no money. The feds have none, regardless of how fast they run their printing presses. There's tons of outstreteched hands. Sure the current Penn station sucks - mostly because of the insanely bad layout than anything else - but right now, there's no money out there to put a smiley face on it, and that's all the New Penn/Farely/MOYniHan station is...
Nasadowsk
 
Posts: 3788
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:45 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby fredct » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:31 am

Nasadowk, and in your grand plan, what do commuters & MSG-tenants do for the few years it takes to rebuild the entire site?


I have another question though... can someone explain to me the operational benefits of Moynihan Station project? Specifically I'm referring to this quote in the NYT article (which other articles have as well: "The project aims to expand capacity and create an eye-catching new entrance to Penn Station, which is now underneath Madison Square Garden and would be connected to the annex."
( source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/nyreg ... f=nyregion )

Since the tracks run east-west, and the Farley Building is just west of the existing Penn station, how will capacity be improved? Doesn't seem like they could add any tracks, or would they somehow add ones above or below the track existing level? Otherwise, sure you would have a second set of platforms (and it would certainly improve the passenger experience due to the extra concourse space), but you couldn't really more more trains, could you?
fredct
 
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 9:11 am
Location: Springfield, NJ

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby Nasadowsk » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:41 am

fredct wrote:Nasadowk, and in your grand plan, what do commuters & MSG-tenants do for the few years it takes to rebuild the entire site?


You build around them. A royal pain? Yes. Will things be royally messed up for a few years? Yes. Will it be hard? Yes. But the reality is that something is going to HAVE TO BE DONE sooner or later. Could the post office be used as a temporary 'penn station' - maybe. Does it need to be 1.5 billion temporary? No.

I have another question though... can someone explain to me the operational benefits of Moynihan Station project?


You put a big smiley face on Penn station. That's it.

Since the tracks run east-west, and the Farley Building is just west of the existing Penn station, how will capacity be improved? Doesn't seem like they could add any tracks, or would they somehow add ones above or below the track existing level? Otherwise, sure you would have a second set of platforms (and it would certainly improve the passenger experience due to the extra concourse space), but you couldn't really more more trains, could you?


There's no way to improve capacity without rethinking and redoing the track level. The flow of people in the existing Penn is another headache, though - I've heard a few people suggest that the way to up train capacity at Penn might be to reduce the number of tracks, to get wider platforms.

And having a station on two levels is boneheaded. Transfers are a royal pain in Penn.

The current proposals don't address this. It's the 800 lb gorilla nobody wants to talk about seriously.

if you want a real logistics headache - wit until one of the automotive bridges around NYC needs replacement. And that day is coming in our lifetimes....
Nasadowsk
 
Posts: 3788
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:45 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby neroden » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:46 am

fredct wrote:Nasadowk, and in your grand plan, what do commuters & MSG-tenants do for the few years it takes to rebuild the entire site?

I have another question though... can someone explain to me the operational benefits of Moynihan Station project?


(1) A waiting room large enough to actually hold the crowds.
(2) New passenger access to platforms from said waiting room.

It provides operational benefits for *pedestrian flow*. If you've ever been in the crowded maze under Madison Square Garden, which is handling several *times* the number of passengers it was designed for, you understand the problem.

It is quite bluntly for passengers. It doesn't change the number of trains or anything.

Oh, the Post Office is currently abandoned, basically; the Postal Service doesn't use most of it anymore and doesn't really want to use any of it. Accordingly, the Post Office won't be "destroyed", it'll be saved (imagine if it just sat, largely unused, for years... you can see where this is going).

Specifically I'm referring to this quote in the NYT article (which other articles have as well: "The project aims to expand capacity and create an eye-catching new entrance to Penn Station, which is now underneath Madison Square Garden and would be connected to the annex."
( source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/nyreg ... f=nyregion )

Since the tracks run east-west, and the Farley Building is just west of the existing Penn station, how will capacity be improved?


*Pedestrian* capacity. They're running on the brink of violating the fire codes as it is.

EDIT: Unfortunately I've never seen detailed plans for "Moynihan Station". I always assumed they'd add elevators and stairs directly from it to as many platforms as possible (which would certainly account for the billion dollars, and would be well worth it for passenger flow).
neroden
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Ithaca, NY

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:50 am

The whole Idea is to put a refurbished tent over same circus, it only moves the station away from the main stram of traffic and conveniences with trains still being on same old platforms.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer
User avatar
DutchRailnut
 
Posts: 21176
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: released from Stalag 13

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby Nasadowsk » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:51 am

neroden wrote:EDIT: Unfortunately I've never seen detailed plans for "Moynihan Station". I always assumed they'd add elevators and stairs directly from it to as many platforms as possible (which would certainly account for the billion dollars, and would be well worth it for passenger flow).


I don't see how - few, if any, platforms actually extend under the Post office.
Nasadowsk
 
Posts: 3788
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:45 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby hi55us » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:06 am

The new Moynihan station is a project that NEEDS to get underway not just because of eclectic reasons, but because of operational efficiency. The lower level in NYP during rush hour looks like their is a major catastrophe, every night. People rushing to their NJT trains, People rushing to their LIRR&Amtrak trains. The zoo-like lines on the upper concourse, everyone in psny needs a solution to this and hopefully moynihan station will provide this. Good for Boardman and Schumer sitting down to discuss this problem.
User avatar
hi55us
 
Posts: 2321
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Manhattan

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby Jtgshu » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:48 am

It would be great to have a grand entrance to NY and a "repurposing" of the Post Office, a much better entrance to the city than the low ceilings and missing ceiling tiles and exposed pipes and wires.

However, its not going to help too much with Pax flows. Most of the platforms don't go far enough west to even go under the post office, and the ones that do, would have some kind of entrance to the platforms on the west end, still putting a bunch of people in one spot, which is the same problem with the waiting room upstairs and the NJT and LIRR concourses. Everyone fighting for 1 set of stairs or escalators.

If the platforms that are shorter were extended (tracks 1 to maybe 7/8 for example) that is going to require MAJOR trackwork as the ladder tracks would need to be shifted really to the "open air" part, inbetween the post office above and the tunnel portals.

It just seems like its going to be a beautiful area and buliding, but with really really long walkways to get there.
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.
User avatar
Jtgshu
 
Posts: 11744
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:32 pm
Location: MP 39.1

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby goodnightjohnwayne » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:38 pm

Granted, the current Penn Station lacks a monumental waiting room, but from what I've seen, modern commuters don't require such a facility. However, commuters do require ready access to the platforms, and that is the greatest weakness of the Moynihan station.

From the standpoint of Amtrak passengers, the waiting room issue was partially solved some years ago with the current arrangement, the only drawback of which is the lack of clean, safe restroom facilities for the exclusive use of Amtrak passengers, other than the Acela lounge. In many other ways, the proximity of the baggage check, ticket windows, and the secure seating area to the gates are all exceptionally convenient and well appreciated.

I'm not about to compliment the aesthetics of the current Penn Station, but I'm not a fan of the Moyihan station concept, as it might actually make the trains less accessible.

I also can't imagine why the Moynihan's name is still attached to the project. Most New Yorkers have long since forgotten Senator Moynihan, and those of use who do remember him never really understood much of what he tried to say due to his inarticulate, overly intellectual approach to every subject.
goodnightjohnwayne
 
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:09 pm

As to "modern commuters don't require such a facility [large waiting room]: They do when track numbers aren't posted until a few minutes before departure. As it is, in the evening rush hour you get a miniature Oklahama land rush in the main concourse every time a track number appears on the central departure board (even if your train leaves from the same track every night you don't dare assume anything until you see the track number). If circumstances don't permit the luxury of having track numbers posted well in advance (and they pretty much don't), commuters need somewhere to wait. Whether they'll be willing to walk west of 8th Ave. to get there only in order to walk back again is another matter.
ExCon90
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:22 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby Otto Vondrak » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:16 pm

The number one benefit would be taking the station out of the rat-hole basement under Penn Station and giving travelers a proper gateway to one of the greatest cities in the world.

When did it become wrong in this society to build beautiful things? Here's a chance to correct what was done so many years ago and possibly bring new development to the area as well. Or would we maintain a series of cinder-block shantys to serve our national passenger rail network?

-otto-
----------------------------------------------
Moderator: New York State Railfan :: New York Central :: Toy Trains
NYW&B Fan Site :: A Magazine I Read Often :: A Museum I Volunteer At
User avatar
Otto Vondrak
 
Posts: 20141
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: New York

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby MudLake » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:57 pm

Otto Vondrak wrote:The number one benefit would be taking the station out of the rat-hole basement under Penn Station and giving travelers a proper gateway to one of the greatest cities in the world.

When did it become wrong in this society to build beautiful things? Here's a chance to correct what was done so many years ago and possibly bring new development to the area as well. Or would we maintain a series of cinder-block shantys to serve our national passenger rail network?

-otto-

I agree, Otto. The current Penn Station is an Amshack version of the largest passenger rail terminal in the country. As for all of the "it won't work" comments, how do you know until you see what the final design is, especially for the platform configurations?
MudLake
 
Posts: 1153
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:02 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby electricron » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:03 pm

My understanding is that the Moynihan area will be for Amtrak passengers only, that the existing Madison Square Garden areas will be shared by NJT and LIRR. I can see how that will help relieve the crowded passageways at MSG, even from Texas......
electricron
 
Posts: 3816
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: Amtrak deal may revive Moynihan station

Postby JamesRR » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:21 pm

The new building would make for a more dramatic entrance for travelers into the city. From the renderings that have been released, it would be a night/day change from the current ceilinged over concourse.

But as many have mentioned, Penn's problems are bigger than a waiting area. Too many people squeezed through several staircases, on too-narrow platforms. When trains unload in the morning, it's the same problem in reverse. It sometimes takes me 8 minutes to get up to the mezzanine. Many of Penn's platforms have freight elevators, which only leave narrow passage on either side. It's dangerous, as trains continue pulling in on these tracks.

The new NJT cavern terminal will help in that the platforms can be made larger and more accommodating. Imagine a station with Secaucus's dimensions in NY. That's what NYP needs. But it's a logistical nightmare. You'd have to add tracks, and remove some to widen the existing platforms (as mentioned). Unlike Grand Central, Penn St. wasn't really built to handle future growth.
User avatar
JamesRR
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:31 pm

Next

Return to Amtrak

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Marty Feldner and 8 guests