All Aboard Ohio and OH proposals (Ohio 3C Corridor)

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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby shlustig » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:41 am

Whether or not the governor would have killed a better proposal is moot. The fact is that there was simply no way a poorly planned and scheduled outrageously expensive 38mph service would be approved.

Having attended some of the public meetings about the proposal, it was clear that the proponents had not followed the "7-P" rule. Parts of the proposal bordered on the moronic, e.g.:can't use Galion Station because it is too close to the tracks, or it is necessary to stop and get permission before entering each of the several dispatching territories.

The 6' 30" transit time CLE to CIN (260 miles) compared unfavorably with the 5'00" time which dated back to the 1940's. When time to get to the station and board the train was added to the time to get to your final destination from the arrival station was included, total transit time approached 8'00". A direct drive via I-71 with 1 pit stop takes 5'00" or less.
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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby Woody » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:22 am

shlustig wrote: . . . simply no way a poorly planned and scheduled outrageously expensive 38mph service would be approved.

And very poorly presented. They rushed to release a preliminary proposal that worked out to be 38 mph or so. Better to have said nothing at all.

After a few weeks of working thru the potential operations, they said, "Oh, wait, it will go 49 mph (iirc) to start, and be upgraded within a year to a faster speed."

By then nobody was listening. At 38 mph they, we, had all tuned out. It was a complete PR failure that will take years to live down.
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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby Station Aficionado » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:18 am

While this is Mr. O'Keefe's topic (and not wanting to invade the moderators' domain), I'd respectfully suggest that, since 3-C is dead and gone, we focus this topic on the new ideas that were cited in the OP. Perhaps if we want to rehash what went wrong with 3-C a separate topic might be in order.
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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby gokeefe » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:00 pm

Station Aficionado wrote:While this is Mr. O'Keefe's topic (and not wanting to invade the moderators' domain), I'd respectfully suggest that, since 3-C is dead and gone, we focus this topic on the new ideas that were cited in the OP.


Very kind of you Mr. Aficionado. And yes I agree its far more interesting to discuss what appears to be a viable proposal that apparently "has legs". I brought the news to the attention of the forum because it appears to have been missed and it also appeared to be a very significant effort to start new service in a place that both needs it and on corridors were the service would seem to have a high chance of success. The new entry of another state in the Chicago hub (this time Ohio) into corridor service is game changing stuff. For now Iowa continues to be a hold out but if corridor service can succeed in Ohio I think it would prod policy makers in more conservative Indiana and Iowa to truly rethink their current corridor service strategies. Indiana seems to be trying but barely. Iowa doesn't want to have anything to do with rail at all. Sooner or later they're going to rethink that strategy, especially as more and more states link together the patchwork quilt of routes and lines into Chicago.

I don't know what the historic ridership figures are for Chicago but I wouldn't be surprised to see the peak challenged within the next 20 years +/-.

Perhaps if we want to rehash what went wrong with 3-C a separate topic might be in order.


Rehash away. See the very first link of the original post.
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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby eazy521 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:59 pm

I would be interested to see the math that shows how 2 Superliner trains plus 2 single level trains carry passengers equivalent to a dozen 737s. This does not seem realistic.

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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby Greg Moore » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:56 pm

eazy521 wrote:I would be interested to see the math that shows how 2 Superliner trains plus 2 single level trains carry passengers equivalent to a dozen 737s. This does not seem realistic.

Eric



Depending on the configuration, a 737 can hold approximately 130 passengers (some as many as 215, but I'm guessing they were talking the 737-300, in a 2 class configuration.)

So that's 1,560 passengers.

Divide among 4 trains: that's 390 seats per train. Let's call it 400, a nice round number.

Superliner I believe approximately 70 seats/car. So that's 6 coaches.

For Amfleet II is approximately 60 seats per car. So that's 7 coaches. (Amfleet I reduces that number).

So, a bit of a stretch, but not a huge one.
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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby eazy521 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:09 pm

Thanks, Greg.

I was thinking 737s routinely fly 200 passengers.

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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby electricron » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:16 pm

eazy521 wrote:Thanks, Greg.
I was thinking 737s routinely fly 200 passengers.
Eric

Per Boeing http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/737family/background.page
The Next-Generation 737 family is currently offered in three sizes, ranging from 120 to 220 seats.
The 737-700 is capable of carrying up to 149 passengers.
The 737-800 can seat up to 189 passengers.
Finally, the 737-900ER is the longest 737, capable of carrying up to 180 passengers in a two-class layout and is certified for up to 220 passengers in a one-class layout.

As of 28 February 2014:
Model Orders Delivered
737-700 1316 1086
737-700C 17 15
737-700BBJ 115 110
737-700W 14 14
737-800 4132 2753
737-800A 40 20
737-800BBJ 21 18
737-900 52 52
737-900ER 520 150
737-900BBJ 7 6
737-MAX 1064 0
There's far more 700 and 800 models than 900 models. And I'll admit my list does;t include earlier models - which are or will be phased out of service soon.
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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby gokeefe » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:31 am

All Aboard Ohio, not only remains very active, but appears to be leading the creation of a bipartisan consensus in favor of regional rail service to Chicago from Cincinnati.

For more see here.

When Cincinnati City Councilwoman Amy Murray and her husband wanted to take a cross-country train trip to a wedding in Lake Tahoe this spring, they found planning most of their route easy. Ridership on Amtrak, the nation’s publicly funded, for-profit rail operation, has skyrocketed in recent years, and the company offers a popular route from Chicago to Sacramento, California. The biggest problem was getting from the Queen City to the Windy City. Amtrak does offer a route, the Cardinal Line, departing from Union Terminal, but it only runs three times a week, and it leaves at 3:30 a.m.

That’s hardly an ideal way to start a cross-country trip, let alone a quick business jaunt or weekend getaway. But the Cleveland-based All Aboard Ohio, led in Cincinnati by transit advocate Derek Bauman, has been working since May to build consensus around the idea of daily, speedy routes running between Cincinnati and Chicago, a major rail hub. Though there are still years of groundwork and political pushing ahead, the effort has attracted surprisingly diverse supporters. Bauman and the group have started building a coalition of local governments, politicians and transit advocates with an all-business, common sense pitch: Other cities in the Midwest already offer daily rail service to Chicago. If Cincinnati doesn’t, it will get left behind economically.

“We live our daily lives here inside the 275 loop, and folks just don’t know what’s going on elsewhere,” Bauman said at a well-attended All Aboard Ohio meeting in Over-the-Rhine Oct. 18.

St. Louis, for instance, has five round trips a day to Chicago. Detroit has four. Many other medium-sized cities in the region have at least daily service, some two or three times a day.

“And then you have Cincinnati down here all by itself,” Bauman said.

Bauman says All Aboard Ohio is focused on rallying support for an incremental approach to building quick daily rail service to Chicago. Eventually, that could mean trains traveling up to 110 mph and reaching the city in something like four hours, instead of the standard eight it currently takes. But that’s the end point. Right now, the group is focused on creating agreement on the need, studying routes to find out more about the costs and challenges involved in the project and getting a working route up and running that can be improved later.
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Re: Ohio Regional Amtrak Service

Postby mtuandrew » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:18 am

gokeefe wrote:All Aboard Ohio, not only remains very active, but appears to be leading the creation of a bipartisan consensus in favor of regional rail service to Chicago from Cincinnati.

For more see here.

Indiana has a 4/week train they don't want to subsidize. Ohio has a market they want to serve. Why can't the two come together and make this service happen? To make it even fairer, Ohio (or the affected counties around Cincinnati) could fund the operational costs, and Indiana could leverage track improvements jointly with CSX with its share of the costs.
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Ohio/Midwest service question

Postby Ryand-Smith » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:40 pm

So here I am sitting in Sandusky after having a wonderful time at a convention. Now while I have 3 hours to burn (more with 30 running late) I had a thought. A possible solution to the issue of there being 2 trains traveling across the lake shores.

A train from south bend to Pittsburgh that would be the "day" train running afternoon intervals (hitting Ohio in the afternoon after 4:00 PM, and a "mid morning" train hitting Ohio at 9-10 PM. These trains could serve as shuttles, keeping more seats open on the lakeshore and the Captiol Limited, and serve as a way to expand Pensslyvanian demand and reach over time. I assume if Amtrak had the cars would it be possible?
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Re: Ohio/Midwest service question

Postby Philly Amtrak Fan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:13 pm

All Aboard Ohio is campaigning for the service you (and I'm sure a lot others) want:

http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/upl ... linkup.pdf
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Re: Ohio/Midwest service question

Postby leviramsey » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:26 am

It's technically possible.

But politically, the law currently requires for a new service running less than 750 miles that state subsidy is required, which would in this case mean Ohio.

Even though doing it would probably help out the LSL and CL (and thus be what a private Amtrak would do), Amtrak can't make the move without state support.
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Re: Ohio/Midwest service question

Postby Noel Weaver » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:47 pm

If Ohio really wants more and better passenger service then it is necessary for them to elect state leaders who not only will support but more importantly will provide funding for it. Until this happens they are lucky to have what they have today. It is as simple as that
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Re: Ohio/Midwest service question

Postby Philly Amtrak Fan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:11 pm

Or change the 750 mile rule. Or create 750+ mile trains that go through Ohio. Trains should be funded at both a national level and a state level. People live in Ohio. If Amtrak were smart, they'd try to get their business. Same in Florida, Texas, and all other states whose service is not proportional to their population.
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