NYP to WAS on LD trains

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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby ApproachMedium » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:23 pm

SouthernRailway wrote:I have a novel idea for Amtrak:

Treat adults as though they are adults:

Let them board when they want to.

Let them sit where they want to

And let them get off when they want to.


We have tried this, when trains are understaffed.

Nobody gets on the right train, esp going to the right or wrong place.

People fight over seats, and the quiet car.

People dont get off at their stops.

Also we have the problem where you cannot just let people board a train when it is blue flagged by mechanical dept during the engine change and car add ons or removals such as train 89 and 90. You cant just let people run down to a platform thats busy with baggage vehicles and mechanical dept people working on the train. Once they are clear, then you can send them down to board. Americans are stupid, and they will sue for anything under the sun. There isnt enough warning signs to stop any of them from getting on and off moving trains, getting run over, getting burned, wet, shocked etc.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby SouthernRailway » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:33 am

Of course Amtrak shouldn’t let people get off moving trains or sit in the quiet car if they aren’t quiet.

European railroads and US commuter railroads let passengers do as I suggest.

If Amtrak treated people like adults, they’d do just fine.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:09 am

When New York Pennsylvania Station has platforms comparable to Berlin Hauptbahnhof or St Pancras Station, and when Amtrak is funded & operated in such a way that we can set our watches to departures, and when their oldest rolling stock isn’t old enough to drink let alone collect Social Security, we can talk about allowing passengers free reign to board cars and select their seats at will. Until then, be glad we have a few additional Corridor choices and lobby your politicians for the funding and Class I/state agency partnerships we need for Amtrak.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby mohawkrailfan » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:33 pm

jp1822 wrote:It’s a good option so as to add revenue to the long distance trains traveling over the NEC, which have the demand, and the LD trains typically have the capacity till Washington DC. Unfortunately, it only does work if passengers traveling exclusively on the NEC are corralled to one car.


Then maybe they could open that car's door in DC, to let people off?

The benefit, you get an Amfleet II coach seat with more leg room. You can enjoy a meal in the dinner if so desired.


Diner service was not offered to us. Probably because the first seating is at 5 and the train arrives in DC at 6 or earlier.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby SouthernRailway » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:04 pm

mtuandrew wrote:When New York Pennsylvania Station has platforms comparable to Berlin Hauptbahnhof or St Pancras Station, and when Amtrak is funded & operated in such a way that we can set our watches to departures, and when their oldest rolling stock isn’t old enough to drink let alone collect Social Security, we can talk about allowing passengers free reign to board cars and select their seats at will. Until then, be glad we have a few additional Corridor choices and lobby your politicians for the funding and Class I/state agency partnerships we need for Amtrak.


What will it take to get Amtrak to let people board the infrequent and short Piedmont trains in Charlotte then, without having to do the “line up and wait” Amtrak scheme?

And NJ Transit and the LIRR don’t force people to “line up and wait” scheme at Penn Station.

The given reasons as to why Amtrak’s “line up and wait” boarding is necessary unfortunately don’t suffice.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby electricron » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:31 pm

SouthernRailway wrote:What will it take to get Amtrak to let people board the infrequent and short Piedmont trains in Charlotte then, without having to do the “line up and wait” Amtrak scheme?

And NJ Transit and the LIRR don’t force people to “line up and wait” scheme at Penn Station.

The given reasons as to why Amtrak’s “line up and wait” boarding is necessary unfortunately don’t suffice.


NJT and LIRR don't care if you actually get a seat on a later train if you got on the wrong one earlier. They are okay with you standing if you had to on a different train than what you booked. Amtrak on the other hand, does not expect anyone to stand, and the later trains may already be fully booked. So Amtrak has more consequences if you got on the wrong train and has more incentives for you getting on the correct train in the first place. Few long distance trains have higher frequencies than once a day, while regional trains are more frequent, it may be several trains later before there is an empty seat for you to use if you got on the wrong train.

And please do not suggest passengers never get on the wrong train. With NJT and LIRR the consequences are not as great because another train will be following soon.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby SouthernRailway » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:30 pm

electricron wrote:
SouthernRailway wrote:What will it take to get Amtrak to let people board the infrequent and short Piedmont trains in Charlotte then, without having to do the “line up and wait” Amtrak scheme?

And NJ Transit and the LIRR don’t force people to “line up and wait” scheme at Penn Station.

The given reasons as to why Amtrak’s “line up and wait” boarding is necessary unfortunately don’t suffice.


NJT and LIRR don't care if you actually get a seat on a later train if you got on the wrong one earlier. They are okay with you standing if you had to on a different train than what you booked. Amtrak on the other hand, does not expect anyone to stand, and the later trains may already be fully booked. So Amtrak has more consequences if you got on the wrong train and has more incentives for you getting on the correct train in the first place. Few long distance trains have higher frequencies than once a day, while regional trains are more frequent, it may be several trains later before there is an empty seat for you to use if you got on the wrong train.

And please do not suggest passengers never get on the wrong train. With NJT and LIRR the consequences are not as great because another train will be following soon.


For Amtrak in the NEC, there will also be another train soon. So what?
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby STrRedWolf » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:21 pm

SouthernRailway wrote:For Amtrak in the NEC, there will also be another train soon. So what?


"Soon" may not be "Soon enough." For instance, if you're at Aberdeen and need to take Amtrak on the weekend, if you miss a 9:05am, your next train is 4:20pm.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby SouthernRailway » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:40 pm

I'm not following.

If I'm at the Aberdeen station and have a ticket for a morning Amtrak train on weekends, I'm not clear on how making me line up and wait, rather than just letting me go on the platform when I want to a board, combined with visual and spoken announcements that the Amtrak train is arriving, helps anything.

Amtrak would need to have the "line up and wait" scheme to block passengers from boarding commuter trains as well if the goal is to ensure that people get on the right train.

If I miss the Amtrak train, it's because I bypassed the boarding line (which anyone can do), and then, as an adult, I get a ticket for the 23-minute trip on MARC to Baltimore, take Amtrak from Baltimore, and am more careful next time.

And if there's one northbound platform, with a sign saying "Philadelphia/NYC This Way", and one southbound platform, with a sign saying "Baltimore/Washington This Way", and you have a ticket for train number such-and-such at such-and-such a time, how hard is it to get on the right train? (Answer: it's not.) Even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez could figure it out.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby STrRedWolf » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:29 pm

SouthernRailway wrote:I'm not following.
...
If I miss the Amtrak train, it's because I bypassed the boarding line (which anyone can do), and then, as an adult, I get a ticket for the 23-minute trip on MARC to Baltimore, take Amtrak from Baltimore, and am more careful next time.


MARC doesn't run to Perryville on the weekends. It's Amtrak or you drive (making connecting buses is rather onerous).

The point is, if you miss it in an area where it's Amtrak or nothing, and you don't have all that great service to begin with from Amtrak, being late to Amtrak means missing the entire damn day. For an extreme example, take the Pennsylvanian at Pittsburgh. Yes, you are lining up at Pittsburgh for the 7:30am run out to New York City. You miss that, you miss the entire day unless you grab Greyhound a block away (which is listed as a Thruway Amtrak service). The next train is around midnight, for the Capital Limited, going to DC. And I bet you line up for that as well.

Comparing Amtrak to NJT or LIRR or Metro-North isn't an equal comparison. Amtrak is meant for long hauls at fast speeds in relative comfort and half-decent dining options. NJT/LIRR is just "Get people from point A to point B within two to three hours and make all local stops" (in general). If I want to get to WAS by train from NYP and not use Amtrak, currently I'd have to bus bridge between Newark, DE and Perryville, MD; if MARC extends up, the travel time will be over eight hours, and include three transfers at major stations. Amtrak is three hours, solid.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby SouthernRailway » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:04 pm

STrRedWolf wrote:
SouthernRailway wrote:I'm not following.
...
If I miss the Amtrak train, it's because I bypassed the boarding line (which anyone can do), and then, as an adult, I get a ticket for the 23-minute trip on MARC to Baltimore, take Amtrak from Baltimore, and am more careful next time.


MARC doesn't run to Perryville on the weekends. It's Amtrak or you drive (making connecting buses is rather onerous).

The point is, if you miss it in an area where it's Amtrak or nothing, and you don't have all that great service to begin with from Amtrak, being late to Amtrak means missing the entire damn day. For an extreme example, take the Pennsylvanian at Pittsburgh. Yes, you are lining up at Pittsburgh for the 7:30am run out to New York City. You miss that, you miss the entire day unless you grab Greyhound a block away (which is listed as a Thruway Amtrak service). The next train is around midnight, for the Capital Limited, going to DC. And I bet you line up for that as well.

Comparing Amtrak to NJT or LIRR or Metro-North isn't an equal comparison. Amtrak is meant for long hauls at fast speeds in relative comfort and half-decent dining options. NJT/LIRR is just "Get people from point A to point B within two to three hours and make all local stops" (in general). If I want to get to WAS by train from NYP and not use Amtrak, currently I'd have to bus bridge between Newark, DE and Perryville, MD; if MARC extends up, the travel time will be over eight hours, and include three transfers at major stations. Amtrak is three hours, solid.


So now you’re changing the Maryland station in question?

In any event, forcing people to line up and wait before boarding solves none of the problems of missing a train.

And if it did, better station signage and announcements, and stationing personnel around to answer questions, could solve those problems without causing so much passenger frustration and inconvenience.

Defenders of Amtrak inefficiencies can always point to different facts that apply just to Amtrak (e.g., “it is unlike the LIRR because...”), but basically every other railroad in the developed world, except Amtrak, lets people board trains when and where they want to.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby east point » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:17 pm

SouthernRailway wrote:[

Defenders of Amtrak inefficiencies can always point to different facts that apply just to Amtrak (e.g., “it is unlike the LIRR because...”), but basically every other railroad in the developed world, except Amtrak, lets people board trains when and where they want to.



Yes but most heavy travelled stations in locations you cite have much wider platforms for passengers. Also passengers in countries such as Japan and China know how to cue up much better !
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby ApproachMedium » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:58 pm

Hes not changing the maryland station in question, the trains that stop at aberdeen are Perryville MD runs. They do not run trains to perryville on weekends, therefore the only aberdeen option is Amtrak. If you actually ride the trains and know about the complexities of what goes on here you can get a better understanding of why things are done the way they are. They arent doing this just because.
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby SouthernRailway » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:44 am

ApproachMedium wrote:Hes not changing the maryland station in question, the trains that stop at aberdeen are Perryville MD runs. They do not run trains to perryville on weekends, therefore the only aberdeen option is Amtrak. If you actually ride the trains and know about the complexities of what goes on here you can get a better understanding of why things are done the way they are. They arent doing this just because.


My home station is NYP and I ride Amtrak frequently in the NEC, including long-distance trains. You?
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Re: NYP to WAS on LD trains

Postby ExCon90 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:25 pm

east point wrote:
SouthernRailway wrote:[

Defenders of Amtrak inefficiencies can always point to different facts that apply just to Amtrak (e.g., “it is unlike the LIRR because...”), but basically every other railroad in the developed world, except Amtrak, lets people board trains when and where they want to.



Yes but most heavy travelled stations in locations you cite have much wider platforms for passengers. Also passengers in countries such as Japan and China know how to cue up much better !

It should also be noted that people in countries in the rest of the world have grown up with trains--ever since their school days train travel has been a part of their lives, and trains hold no mysteries for them. In the U. S., there are plenty of people who have never been on a train; they think "we're going by train, this is a train, let's get on it." And they do, and the conductor has to figure out what to do with them when they find out there was more than one train (who knew?) and they got on the wrong one. Admittedly, better signage would help, but not with the apparently irreducible minimum of people who can't be bothered to read signs.
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