Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

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Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby frequentflyer » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:51 pm

Amtrak motive choices

Refurbished Genesis
1. Will be lower CapEx than buying new.
2. Should be grandfathered from the tier 4 rules
3. Not sure of what support GE is offering on these
4. Maintenance familiarity
5. Increased reliablity................hopefully.

New Chargers
1. More expensive
2. Tier 4 ready with more sophisticated diagnosis systems to prevent on the road failures (Genesis has something similar? We how well that works).
3. Is Siemens offering onsite maintenance?
4. Increased reliability..............better, its new........teething problems
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby Backshophoss » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:15 pm

GE may or may not still offer a EVO prime mover repower kit,based on the HSP-46 used by MBTA.
That has had mixed results in commuter service,of note, GE is replacing all the turbos on the HSP-46.

Suggest read the HSP-46 thread in the MBTA forum,for more details! :-)
Last edited by Backshophoss on Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby east point » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:34 pm

We should only support the rebuilding of P-42s if they are converted to AC traction. Many will have good frames and can be rebuilt then scrap the rest. Probably Amtrak will need some Chargers as well but until it can be determined the number of P-42 and P-40 upgrades available any argument is premature.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby Backshophoss » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:12 pm

Amtrak will gain some idea if the Charger SC-44 will be the next "purchase" or not, from the midwest fleet of state owned units out of Chicago,
and the WSDOT/ORDOT owned Chargers out of Seattle.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby STrRedWolf » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:54 am

Backshophoss wrote:Amtrak will gain some idea if the Charger SC-44 will be the next "purchase" or not, from the midwest fleet of state owned units out of Chicago,
and the WSDOT/ORDOT owned Chargers out of Seattle.


They'll probably wait until MARC has them on the NEC to get some of the high-speed data on them. Right now, they'll be getting the nominal travel speed and only half the picture.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:19 am

since they did testing on NEC with one unit , they would not need to wait.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby 8th Notch » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:15 pm

STrRedWolf wrote:
Backshophoss wrote:Amtrak will gain some idea if the Charger SC-44 will be the next "purchase" or not, from the midwest fleet of state owned units out of Chicago,
and the WSDOT/ORDOT owned Chargers out of Seattle.


They'll probably wait until MARC has them on the NEC to get some of the high-speed data on them. Right now, they'll be getting the nominal travel speed and only half the picture.


As Dutch said, they tested one at high speed on the NEC already... It cranked along at 130 mph pretty nicely if I do say so myself.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby Alex M » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:03 pm

A possible third alternative would be an ECO style of remanufactured unit that the successor to EMD has been doing on freight units. You will get, in effect, a virtually new unit, I suppose, that is if EMD's successor could do it.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby mtuandrew » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:27 pm

Alex M wrote:A possible third alternative would be an ECO style of remanufactured unit that the successor to EMD has been doing on freight units. You will get, in effect, a virtually new unit, I suppose, that is if EMD's successor could do it.

A worthy idea for the MP36s and remaining F40s, but those are limited to the same or less horsepower. If your service is ok with 3200 hp, an F40ECO would be a fine choice.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby D.Carleton » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:31 pm

east point wrote:We should only support the rebuilding of P-42s if they are converted to AC traction. Many will have good frames and can be rebuilt then scrap the rest. Probably Amtrak will need some Chargers as well but until it can be determined the number of P-42 and P-40 upgrades available any argument is premature.
https://www.ltk.com/work/amtraks-locomotives
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby de402 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:42 pm

D.Carleton wrote:
east point wrote:We should only support the rebuilding of P-42s if they are converted to AC traction. Many will have good frames and can be rebuilt then scrap the rest. Probably Amtrak will need some Chargers as well but until it can be determined the number of P-42 and P-40 upgrades available any argument is premature.
https://www.ltk.com/work/amtraks-locomotives


If LTK found excessive wear etc on 25% of the LD engines (in CHI) it could only be as worse on corridor equipment.

Remanning a freight engine is one thing because they're generally designed to be rebuilt. There are supply and tool chains that support the whole rebuilding process from start to finish. I don't think that GE intended (or thought) that Genesis 1 & 2 would be rebuilt. Rather they'd hoped that because no one offered a decent alternative (at the time they were sold) Amtrak would be a near lock for new stuff. Today's GE doesn't give a damn about the passenger market as its gone all in on freight motors (currently finding a way to manufacture 100 engines a year in India instead exporting them). Competitor's past and current efforts have been fairly lame.

IMHO, I don't think there's any real economic value for Amtrak to rebuild an engine that seems to have ended up becoming a one off for its manufacturer. Yes, there were some incremental improvements with the P40 & P42 but its still a DC locomotive. It's a monocoque car-body is limiting for any sort of engine upgrade. The P32 was kind of a step backwards in performance just to get an E-mode motor for duty within NYC. Furthermore the P32s ended up built because MNRR needed them for its GCT ops and a cash strapped NRPC could piggyback on a few. Neither gear is interchangeable as the 32 is AC with inverters and a 12 cylinder engine while the 40-42 are DC with a V16. The Genesis car-body is also difficult to repair from the inevitable damage from use (level crossing accidents occur often). There's also issues with electronics and engine management controls that were custom to each model. Finally, the production run for both Genny's 1 and 2 have been shutdown.

The Charger seems like a decent alternative as it's a real, tested, and a now shipping product. On paper it's got further reduced fuel consumption and emissions; IGBT inverters (4), commonality of parts with the ACS64, plus its manufacturer that seems to be genuinely interested in supplying North America.

The F125 looks attractive but units have yet to be delivered en-mass (4? so far). There are more SC44's running around than what Progress Rail has been able to deliver. As a NY'r it seems to be another DE/DM fiasco as the first units for test had parts missing etc. The HSP46 is even crappier (with GEVO12) availability.

The old way of building a locomotive was around its prime mover but, the requirements such as emissions, operational economy, HEP, modularity of power plant, and some others i'm probably missing, the control and switch gear are now the heart of the damn engine.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby Backshophoss » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:35 pm

Depending on the $$$$ per unit,GE's Evo prime mover repower kit could be done "in house" at Beech Grove,
as long as Amtrak is willing to rebuild the P-40/42 bodyshell to repair/replace the weak points in the shell.

The BIG question is how well the Cummings prime mover holds up in passenger service, or need constant maintaince
along the lines of the Cat prime movers in the AL45-DP(they are getting due for top deck(heads) work)

It should be noted that Siemens is setting up a shop on the East Coast,to monitor,and help maintain their products,
With Amtrak,MARC and SEPTA as the first customers for this service.
'
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby STrRedWolf » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Backshophoss wrote:It should be noted that Siemens is setting up a shop on the East Coast,to monitor,and help maintain their products,
With Amtrak,MARC and SEPTA as the first customers for this service.


I now wonder where...

From http://www.delawareonline.com/story/mon ... 100890248/ (fair use quote, parts redacted)
Siemens U.S. has launched Digital Rail Services, a new business unit that will have its East Coast headquarters near New Castle.

...

Dubbed the East Coast Locomotive Service Headquarters, the building at 800 Centerpoint Blvd. will house technical support along with workers who will review and assess parts shipped to Siemens' railroad operations in the nation's most populous areas. The building will be staffed 24 hours a day.

"Most of our locomotive footprint is on the East Coast," Maynard said. "We felt it made sense to be near our customers like Amtrak, SEPTA and MARC."


From what I could tell from Google Maps, it does have a rail connection to the NEC, so if they built the track, they could have some hands-on dealings with the engine... but then it's only a few minutes away from the Bear, DE shops.
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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:51 am

Its a computer center, not a maintenance facility. it gathers data from engines and lets customer plan its maintenance accordingly.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Buy new Siemens Charger or refurbish Genesis

Postby frequentflyer » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:13 am

de402 wrote:
D.Carleton wrote:
east point wrote:We should only support the rebuilding of P-42s if they are converted to AC traction. Many will have good frames and can be rebuilt then scrap the rest. Probably Amtrak will need some Chargers as well but until it can be determined the number of P-42 and P-40 upgrades available any argument is premature.
https://www.ltk.com/work/amtraks-locomotives


If LTK found excessive wear etc on 25% of the LD engines (in CHI) it could only be as worse on corridor equipment.

Remanning a freight engine is one thing because they're generally designed to be rebuilt. There are supply and tool chains that support the whole rebuilding process from start to finish. I don't think that GE intended (or thought) that Genesis 1 & 2 would be rebuilt. Rather they'd hoped that because no one offered a decent alternative (at the time they were sold) Amtrak would be a near lock for new stuff. Today's GE doesn't give a damn about the passenger market as its gone all in on freight motors (currently finding a way to manufacture 100 engines a year in India instead exporting them). Competitor's past and current efforts have been fairly lame.

IMHO, I don't think there's any real economic value for Amtrak to rebuild an engine that seems to have ended up becoming a one off for its manufacturer. Yes, there were some incremental improvements with the P40 & P42 but its still a DC locomotive. It's a monocoque car-body is limiting for any sort of engine upgrade. The P32 was kind of a step backwards in performance just to get an E-mode motor for duty within NYC. Furthermore the P32s ended up built because MNRR needed them for its GCT ops and a cash strapped NRPC could piggyback on a few. Neither gear is interchangeable as the 32 is AC with inverters and a 12 cylinder engine while the 40-42 are DC with a V16. The Genesis car-body is also difficult to repair from the inevitable damage from use (level crossing accidents occur often). There's also issues with electronics and engine management controls that were custom to each model. Finally, the production run for both Genny's 1 and 2 have been shutdown.

The Charger seems like a decent alternative as it's a real, tested, and a now shipping product. On paper it's got further reduced fuel consumption and emissions; IGBT inverters (4), commonality of parts with the ACS64, plus its manufacturer that seems to be genuinely interested in supplying North America.

The F125 looks attractive but units have yet to be delivered en-mass (4? so far). There are more SC44's running around than what Progress Rail has been able to deliver. As a NY'r it seems to be another DE/DM fiasco as the first units for test had parts missing etc. The HSP46 is even crappier (with GEVO12) availability.

The old way of building a locomotive was around its prime mover but, the requirements such as emissions, operational economy, HEP, modularity of power plant, and some others i'm probably missing, the control and switch gear are now the heart of the damn engine.


Thank you for the detail reply, the points about the mono body is interesting. One could get the impression for durability sake, Amtrak should go for a modern day F40 . Get a freight locomotive from EMD (probably offer a better deal) or GE and stick a full length cowl on it.
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