P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, gprimr1, Amtrak67 of America, Tadman

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby mtuandrew » Tue May 23, 2017 7:57 am

Diesel-electric + (battery + 3rd rail) seems like the best way to reduce & smooth out the spike in current draw when starting trains. Supercapacitors would be better and lighter, but they aren't advanced enough to support the kind of amperage we need. Maybe there's a hydraulic accumulator or flywheel system that could store enough energy to do the same.
User avatar
mtuandrew
 
Posts: 4009
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby mohawkrailfan » Tue May 23, 2017 1:03 pm

The P32AC-DM that sits in Penn Station west of the platforms nearly all the time sounds like it's powered on (though it's sort of hard to tell from a passing train). Is it running off third rail or diesel? Does running it 24 hours a day cause significant wear and tear?
Make a little noise at the flag location.
mohawkrailfan
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:13 am

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby amtrakhogger » Tue May 23, 2017 5:24 pm

The P32 that sits as a protect in NYP is in electric mode.
"I will stop at St. Avold."
User avatar
amtrakhogger
 
Posts: 1832
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:16 am
Location: "F" on the Camden and Amboy

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby BandA » Tue May 23, 2017 5:39 pm

If it's on all the time it's going to be wasting electricity and wearing out components. I did a back of the envelope calculation a few years ago, came back $4 per watt for something plugged in 24x7. On the other hand, how long does it take to boot an engine? And if you turn it off does it need a fresh brake test? <==== Reason here
User avatar
BandA
 
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby David Benton » Tue May 23, 2017 7:50 pm

$ 4 per watt doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you mean $ 4 per hour?
Moderator worldwide railfan , Rail travel & trip reports
The only train trips I regret are the ones I didn't take.
User avatar
David Benton
 
Posts: 7808
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby BandA » Thu May 25, 2017 5:37 pm

National Grid in Massachusetts charged 17.5 cents/kilowatt hour summer 2015, 22 cents/kWh winter 2015/16. There are 24*365 ==> 8,760 hours/year.

So, say 20 cents/kWh. 0.20 dollars/kWh * 8760 hours/year * 0.001 kilowatts/watt ==> $1.75/watt year.
User avatar
BandA
 
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu May 25, 2017 6:05 pm

and third rail at MN and LIRR is fed with NY power authority power at huge discount.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer
User avatar
DutchRailnut
 
Posts: 21176
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: released from Stalag 13

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Jeff Smith » Fri May 26, 2017 9:20 am

http://www.timesunion.com/allwcm/articl ... 170586.php

Twice this spring locomotives have broken down in the tunnels leading out of Penn Station, stranding hundreds of passengers aboard Albany-bound trains. A third broke down in the Mohawk Valley, stranding its passengers for nearly four hours.

In each case, the trains involved were being hauled by aging General Electric locomotives that were specifically designed to operate under electric power into Penn Station and under diesel power elsewhere in the state.

State Department of Transportation officials had recommended that an order be placed for new locomotives before the breakdowns become intolerable. The Cuomo administration apparently said no.

"GE has ... stopped manufacturing new replacement components, which combined with age and intense use makes it difficult and costly for Amtrak's Rensselaer Maintenance Facility to keep these locomotives in service," said Jack Madden, a retired engineer at the state DOT's rail division, who argued for replacing them in an opinion piece in The Daily Gazette of Schenectady. "The average failure rate in service for the (dual-mode) fleet is increasing, leading to more frustrating delays to passengers."
...
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator
Jeff Smith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7404
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Tadman » Fri May 26, 2017 1:14 pm

This might sound crazy, but it sounds like half the battle with dual modes is space and weight. Why not do a two-unit locomotive that looks just like two locomotives back to back? One is a straight diesel, one is a straight electric. They are semi-permanently coupled (IE only shop crews can uncouple). A bus line carries line power and traction power between the two (permissible since semi-permanent coupling). Now you have two lighter locomotives. You have eight traction motors for faster starting. You have (4) third rail shoes over 140' length rather than two over 70' to prevent gapping. You have a cab on either end so no turning necessary. The diesel is a standard off-shelf locomotive like the Siemens unit being bought for corridor service elsewhere, so less custom engineering is required.

I'm guessing the roadblocks are "we never do that", "we don't want two engines when one will do" etc....

Will probably never happen because it makes too much sense.
Tadman
 
Posts: 8389
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:21 am
Location: Michigan

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Nasadowsk » Fri May 26, 2017 4:47 pm

NJT kinda did that with the ACES service - a P40 at one end, ALP-44 at the other. It worked well enough.

It's a bit silly, for Amtrak, that they need dual modes, since they litterally need the DM feature for about 1 mile (if that) in/out of Penn on the west side, and the trip through the East river tunnels to Sunnyside. Now that the open space on the west end is closed up, and all, there's probably LESS ventilation down there. Too bad - it'd be interesting to see what the feasability of just changing ends at Penn, putting the loco on the west end, running a tier 4 unit, and doing the servicing up at MN's facility, would look like, and how that'd compare vs buying new DMs. For Amtrak, DM is a lot of effort for a tiny (TINY!) percentage of the track they run over.

In a better world, just electrify to Albany, and buy third rail electrics for long distance stuff and M8s for Albany runs (even if the M8 is less than ideal, it exists and there'd be parts commonality with MN and CDOT)

None of the operators of third rail DMs have much luck, and the the ALP45s don't seem to be too spectacular either, though NJT doesn't release numbers (they probably don't know them, knowing how dysfunctional NJT is...). The DM-30s are known duds (who did the traction on those?), the P-32s don't fare much better on MN.
Nasadowsk
 
Posts: 3788
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:45 pm

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby mtuandrew » Sun May 28, 2017 10:55 am

Tad: I agree in principle. In practice more likely that Amtrak MUs their P32 fleet back to back either with each other or with a P40/42.

And wouldn't an electrodiesel version of this be cool!?
User avatar
mtuandrew
 
Posts: 4009
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DutchRailnut » Sun May 28, 2017 4:41 pm

a P40 or P42 can not control the third rail portion of a P32acdm
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer
User avatar
DutchRailnut
 
Posts: 21176
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: released from Stalag 13

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby David Benton » Sun May 28, 2017 7:45 pm

If there were more trains that turned in Albany , then the idea would be to have a P32 type on one end, a straight 3rd rail electric/ cab car on the other. That would allow a quick turnaround at both ends.
I have often wondered as well why they bother with diesel / third rail combos . Easier to have 2 separate locos as Tads says, and make them talk to each other.
Last edited by David Benton on Mon May 29, 2017 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Moderator worldwide railfan , Rail travel & trip reports
The only train trips I regret are the ones I didn't take.
User avatar
David Benton
 
Posts: 7808
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sun May 28, 2017 7:52 pm

Nasadowsk wrote:None of the operators of third rail DMs have much luck, the ALP45s don't seem to be too spectacular either, though NJT doesn't release numbers (they probably don't know them, knowing how dysfunctional NJT is...)

ALP45s make up a sizable percentage of push-pulls on both electric and diesel lines (especially with many GP40s and F40s retired or sold). If they can do better than P32s or DM30s, could work for the Empire Service, since line is wired with overhead wire to 42nd Street.
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.
User avatar
R36 Combine Coach
 
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:51 pm

Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby AgentSkelly » Mon May 29, 2017 2:22 am

Here's a thought....

Could proper ventilation systems be installed at a lower cost than dealing with 3rd rail? from my understanding, you just need to have vent ducts placed at sections where a diesel locomotive would idle.
New Westminster to Amtrak 516, whats up with the extra 4 axles, over?
AgentSkelly
 
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:05 pm
Location: BNSF Vancouver Terminal

PreviousNext

Return to Amtrak

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 16 guests