P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Backshophoss » Wed May 03, 2017 8:39 pm

Do the "cards" have outmoded/obsolete components that are no longer made??
Or has GE discontinued the parts all together? :(
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby electricron » Wed May 03, 2017 9:00 pm

About the only electrical/electronic parts on these locomotives different from the other 13,000 locomotives using the same diesel are the brushes for the D.C. Power for the third rail - and the inverters used to convert the DC power to AC. Newer inverters today use IGBT devices instead of SCR thyristers used a few decades ago. Old locomotives can be upgraded to using the newer power converters without a complete rebuilding of the locomotive from scratch.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed May 03, 2017 9:05 pm

ehh no, most of dash 8 series are DC locomotives the P32acdm has AC propulsion.
The circuit boards and other propulsion components are hard to get and right now both Amtrak and MN are robbing stuff of one unit to keep another unit on the road.

nothing is really compatible but trucks and car body even Air compressor is different than every Dash-8 (rotary/screw)
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby electricron » Wed May 03, 2017 9:19 pm

True, but there are almost 2,600 Dash 9 locomotives with AC motors. So there are plenty of parts around to run AC motors, it's just a matter of deciding to refurbish the old Dash 8 cards to Dash 9 cards. At some point, these locomotives will either be refurbished or replaced.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Backshophoss » Wed May 03, 2017 10:06 pm

The "given" is the "cards" are unique to the P32DM ,are not the same cards used on freight power GE's.
And there're different enough so cards on the Amtrak units cannot be used on MN units,nor can the "cards"
on the MN P32DM's be used on Amtrak's units.

The MN/ConnDOT units were remanufactured at GE ERIE not that long ago.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu May 04, 2017 7:59 am

Lots of very different engine makes use the same prime mover. Think of how many very different locomotives use the 16-cylinder EMD 645E3: every generation of F40PH, every GP40 and GP40-2 freight and passenger variant, every SD40 variant, all kinds of Euro makes. That doesn't mean the individual makes are so similar they can be all be converted to each other on a whim. It's easier to downrate a GP40 into a 12-cylinder 645-bearing GP38 or vice versa because of the way the "General Purpose" was designed for that kind of customization leeway than it is to turn the passenger-specialized F40 packaging into a freight engine. Amtrak found that out the hard way with its misfit SDP40's not being specialized enough for passenger service from their freight lineage; when they dumped those engines for parts for more F40's the only thing salvaged was the 645 prime mover itself for making that batch of F40PHR's. And when MPI created the MP32PH-Q out of former GP40 carbodies, the 645E3 prime mover was the only legacy component retained inside that carbody. Everything else is stock MPXpress components, putting it in the same family as an MP36PH-3 and MP40PH-3; the Geep lineage was completely erased despite the superficial resemblance and same prime mover heartbeat.

Same is true for the long list GE Dash 8's, especially with that being such a long-lived engine platform. Amtrak's P328-WH isn't a Genesis or all that portable with a Genesis in rebuild, despite it originally being a testing platform for tech that ultimately made it into the Genesis. Conversely, when the P42's hit the aftermarket it probably will be possible to rebuild them as "P32AC's" sans the "DM" capability since the 32AC-DM's alternator and AC traction motors are still in-production today and used in the MPI HSP-46. But whatever updated microprocessor controls and new emissions controls get installed would just hew a lot more conservatively to the Gennie baseline without changing them into something radically different. The HSP's are completely different packaging, and are unreliable in-part because they went very far out on a limb with custom electronics. A P42 rebuilt to AC traction would still be a Gennie through and through, not an HSP (thank god). Electronics and systems integration is more what distinguishes loco makes than power components, especially in the 21st century where making good rolling stock is almost more about software programming than hardware selection.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Alcochaser » Thu May 04, 2017 9:06 pm

You guys are confusing things badly here and not listening to what the railroaders on here are trying to tell you.

When the railroaders on here mean "cards" they mean circuit boards that control the operations of the locomotive. They "plug" into a backplane/rack in the electrical cab.

These are dash-2 cards but you get the idea of what they look like.
Image

The P32AC-DM uses a set of these "Cards" that are found in no other locomotive. It's not unusual. First the P32AC-DM is a special beast. All the cards were special made to control the Four traction inverters under the cooling fan, and the HEP inverter as well. The cards also control litterally everything the locomotive does, from switching over on the fly from third rail, to traction control.

With only a small handfull ever made, GE has stopped making new ones. So every time one burns out, replacements are hard to come by. And you CAN'T go to whatever GE junker waiting to be scrapped because they are specific to only this model.

Heck even the 7FDL12 (12 Cylinder FDL) isn't exactly all that common. But they are out there, and they can at least be shared with the B32-8WH units (500s). (And are, I know for a fact that Beech Grove has intermingled the 500s and 700s prime movers. There are 500s running around out there with FDLs delivered in a 700, and vice versa)

Now the 500s have had some upgrades, but that is a story for another thread.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby mtuandrew » Thu May 04, 2017 9:58 pm

That's really interesting, Alcochaser. Are the newest locomotives from GE (Progress, Bombardier, Siemens, Alston, etc) still built with card-style electronics?
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby BandA » Fri May 05, 2017 12:10 am

What are those on the faceplate, mini banana-plug sockets for testing? Or are they LED indicators?
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby David Benton » Fri May 05, 2017 4:52 am

Modifying different "cards", or making new cards would be an enormous task. Unlikely to be economic. electronic components evolve quickly, and newer versions of the same transistor/ mosfet /chip are likely to be different enough to mean it can't be reverse engineered. And if there are EPROMS or other programmable chips on the boards , then definetly forget it.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Alcochaser » Fri May 05, 2017 5:56 am

mtuandrew wrote:That's really interesting, Alcochaser. Are the newest locomotives from GE (Progress, Bombardier, Siemens, Alston, etc) still built with card-style electronics?


Modern locos have moved away from them somewhat in favor of a computer that is programmable with software updates.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby ThirdRail7 » Fri May 05, 2017 12:22 pm

BandA wrote:What are those on the faceplate, mini banana-plug sockets for testing? Or are they LED indicators?


They were for testing .The E60s and AEM7-DCs had these as well. Find replacements for them posed a significant problem. The REMAN process created a surplus but when they ran out, you had to attempt to replicate them. ApporachMedium can probably fill in the blanks.
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Re: dual-mode Genesis locomotives

Postby cobra30689 » Mon May 22, 2017 12:07 pm

Tadman wrote:I get that arcs are not desirable, but I see accelerating subway cars drawing huge arcs in the rain all the time, and I see catenary-powered EMU's pulling similarly large arcs on damp evenings (when you can see the arcs and the conditions are right). Aren't those as bad, or perhaps worse since the wire is a much smaller conductor than a rail?


MU cars are a totally different animal....remember each car (at the most married pair) is an independent unit with their own 3rd rail shoes; the end load on the individual shoes is much less than an entire train (including HEP) and its propulsion unit drawing power off one or two shoes on the AC-DM. I've stood a couple of tracks over from an Empire train that has gapped under load on the X's leaving NYP. The resulting arc was so strong I could feel the heat on the side of my face. That is a terrifying amount of current.
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby Ryand-Smith » Mon May 22, 2017 2:08 pm

Question, for a replacement motor Siemens was proposing a battery alternative to the third rail, would a battery be ideal instead of the third rail for reduced complexity?
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Re: P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon May 22, 2017 2:45 pm

think you misunderstood that, they suggest a battery power option for gaps in gct and nyp.
so diesel does not need to be started to move 100 feet or so.

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... 1-6-15.pdf

Siemens is the manufacturer selected to construct the PRIIA Diesel-Electric Passenger
Locomotive, named the Charger, which has a maximum speed of 125 MPH. Siemens advised
that, using the PRIIA Charger locomotive as a base (at 272,000 pounds), the addition of the DC
3rd rail gear and electrical equipment would result in a DM locomotive which would be heavier
(at 291,500 pounds) and 3 feet longer. The DM locomotive would not exceed the P2 force of
82,000 pounds on the rail at 110 MPH; however, at 125 MPH the P2 force limit would be
exceeded. The addition of a notable and useful on-board energy storage would add an
additional 15,000 pounds. The Siemens Charger locomotive meets EPA Tier 4 emissions
standards
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