ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:50 pm

Even if 601 gets restored, refusing to operate it would be considered a illegal act and result in dismissal from railroad.
its their tools and employees do not get choice .
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby CHTT1 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:26 pm

Do you really think that any non-railfan passengers would even know the number of the locomotive involved in the crash? I would imagine 99.5 percent of all passengers would pay no attention to any locomotive number.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:23 pm

CHTT1 wrote:Do you really think that any non-railfan passengers would even know the number of the locomotive involved in the crash? I would imagine 99.5 percent of all passengers would pay no attention to any locomotive number.


OK...and what's the annual ridership of the all-electric NE Regionals and Keystones? North of 9.5 million, and we won't even count ridership from the Virginias and Pennsylvanians and Vermonters and LD's that switch power somewhere en route. That 0.5% who notices suddenly doesn't look so small at a even a low-balled (i.e. no diesel malingerers) 475,000 annually. The "noticers" have a 1-in-70 chance of catching 601 themselves--6785 people per year--but in reality considerably greater odds of seeing it in their travels when other trains pulling into the same station are factored in. So let's again lowball the "I personally noticed that was 601" odds at 7000 per annum (seems kinda low). Now let's say 0.001% of the "noticers" have vivid enough memories of the accident to be bothered enough by that number being in recirculation to voice displeasure to an Amtrak staffer. And, really, it's not all that hard to see this being a plenty vivid memory if you were living anywhere on the middle of the Corridor...but especially Philly...that week commutes were paralyzed and saw shots like this on a 24/7 constant loop:

Image

Okay...so that's 7 registered complaints per year. Every year for life-of-fleet. Dips in years the furthest distance between anniversaries, spikes during the decade anniversaries, eventually fades after the 20th. Also keep in mind that "superstitions" about accidents and numbers stem from it being airline industry S.O.P. to retire whole 3-4 digit route numbers after a bad fatal crash of an individual plane because it's the most lasting identifying marker of the tragedy. Train schedule numbers don't carry the same significance; "Train 188" isn't cursed because it's just "The __:__ Regional" in passenger rail vernacular. But in the absence of any other identifying markers of significance the 3-digit number on the leading loco is the only thing that'll stand out to any observer and trace back to scenes from the accident. So do not discount the possibility of a few of those seemingly minute number of complaints rustling up a hornet's nest that catches some air on a media outlet if it happens to come from a survivor or first responder of the accident, friends/family of a victim/survivor/first responder, and any other longtime riders who for variety of wholly personal and legit reasons may be easily triggered by reminders of seeing that tragedy on the news. It's not our job to preemptively psychoanalyze why their hypothetical complaints are/aren't legit. We're just quantifying the odds that Amtrak Customer Service and/or spokesfalks (if there's a blip on the media radar) have to pounce on a grenade...any grenade.




We're not talking an absolute lot of complaints. We're talking paths of least resistance in making the paint shop finish off replacement unit "6_1" with a "0" or a "7". One bona fide PR grenade defused in the Greater Philly area for every 5 years of single-digit complaints is probably literally all the motivation needed to just sidestep the issue altogether and fill that blank with a "7". That's it. Customer Service does not like those gambling odds...infinitesimally small as they may seem...enough to chance it, and they don't care about anyone's fleet numbering continuity aesthetics if that's the difference in never having to pounce on that particular grenade so much as once for any reason.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby OrangeGrove » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:20 am

CHTT1 wrote:Do you really think that any non-railfan passengers would even know the number of the locomotive involved in the crash? I would imagine 99.5 percent of all passengers would pay no attention to any locomotive number.


In my experience, many people outside of a professional or personal interest in railroading are frankly surprised to learn that cars and locomotives are routinely repaired/rebuilt and returned to service after a major wreck (such certainly doesn't happen in the airline world). Very, very few (even many railfans) are going to recall the engine number anyway, but even fewer would actually make the connection (or care) that it was the same unit.

That said, numbers in a sequence have been skipped before (no ACS-64 #666, for instance), and there is really no harm in numbering the rebuilt unit(s) 671 or 672. But neither would a new or rebuilt #601 present more than a trivial problem.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:45 am

Volks, was PRR worried about any superstition, passengers and employees, with GG-1 4876?

http://dcist.com/2013/01/post_55.php#photo-1

Fair Use:

After Eisenhower was sworn in and Washington settled down, the crashed train was cut into three sections, hoisted out of the baggage room and shipped to the Pennsylvania Railroad's engine shop in Altoona, Pa. Improbably, only 10 months after taking an unplanned detour through the concourse floor at Union Station, GG-1 No. 4876 was given a new coat of Tuscan red paint and placed back on the tracks. The Pennsy engine lived out the rest of its days hauling passengers for the PRR and Amtrak before retiring as a New Jersey Transit locomotive in 1983, 44 years after it rolled out of the assembly shed in 1939
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby scratchy » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:30 am

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Volks, was PRR worried about any superstition, passengers and employees, with GG-1 4876?

http://dcist.com/2013/01/post_55.php#photo-1

Fair Use:

After Eisenhower was sworn in and Washington settled down, the crashed train was cut into three sections, hoisted out of the baggage room and shipped to the Pennsylvania Railroad's engine shop in Altoona, Pa. Improbably, only 10 months after taking an unplanned detour through the concourse floor at Union Station, GG-1 No. 4876 was given a new coat of Tuscan red paint and placed back on the tracks. The Pennsy engine lived out the rest of its days hauling passengers for the PRR and Amtrak before retiring as a New Jersey Transit locomotive in 1983, 44 years after it rolled out of the assembly shed in 1939


Nope, And it's currently behind the fence at the Railroad Museum shops, away from the vandals.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby mtuandrew » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:00 pm

Big difference: #4876 was not involved in a fatal crash.

Anyway. We'll see if Amtrak bothers to replace or repair 601, and whether if replaced or repaired it gets a new number.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby ApproachMedium » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:05 pm

The last major area fatal crash where a locomotive was wrecked and returned to service they change the cab number. NJ Transits 4219 was previously 4148 involved in the deadly secacus wreck back in the 90s and was the big mover to change the top speed without train control to 79mph, as well as what pushed NJT to install cab signaling on ALL of their lines where previously they only had cab signal on the jersey coast, raritan and NEC. 4148 was, like 601, a cab number plastered in every local newspaper in the tri state area back then. It was a sight that everyone knew and came to be. While people may have known the train numbers, like mentioned above, most just remember the departing times so thats not really associated. But the cab number everyone saw that over and over again. A sound decision to replace the number with another was made when the unit was rebuilt. IF amtrak has any sense a simple change of the numbers should the 601 be rebuilt, would go a long way.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby liftedjeep » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:37 pm

ApproachMedium wrote:The last major area fatal crash where a locomotive was wrecked and returned to service they change the cab number. NJ Transits 4219 was previously 4148 involved in the deadly secacus wreck back in the 90s and was the big mover to change the top speed without train control to 79mph, as well as what pushed NJT to install cab signaling on ALL of their lines where previously they only had cab signal on the jersey coast, raritan and NEC. 4148 was, like 601, a cab number plastered in every local newspaper in the tri state area back then. It was a sight that everyone knew and came to be. While people may have known the train numbers, like mentioned above, most just remember the departing times so thats not really associated. But the cab number everyone saw that over and over again. A sound decision to replace the number with another was made when the unit was rebuilt. IF amtrak has any sense a simple change of the numbers should the 601 be rebuilt, would go a long way.


Very well put Approach, I absolutely agree with you.

For what its worth, #4219 Is currently making the trips back and forth from Philadelphia to Atlantic City on NJT's AC Line.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby ExCon90 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:58 pm

Certainly the line of least resistance is just to assign a new number and let it go. The feeling is not confined to loco numbers; there used to be a Malbone Street in Brooklyn, but not any more since the wreck. The city renamed the street (who wanted to live on Malbone Street after that?) and moved on.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:25 am

"For those in need", here is a quick, well produced, "primer" on the Malbone Street incident:

https://youtu.be/vrq4XhXjoVw

Also, funny how airlines have a way of retiring flight numbers after a fatal incident. Find me a United 93 or an American 191, if you can.

Back to topic; even if 601 and 627 (please accept my apologies for wrongfully identifying that second unit in earlier postings) are returned to service, they likely will have new road #'s.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby ApproachMedium » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:53 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:"For those in need", here is a quick, well produced, "primer" on the Malbone Street incident:

https://youtu.be/vrq4XhXjoVw

Also, funny how airlines have a way of retiring flight numbers after a fatal incident. Find me a United 93 or an American 191, if you can.

Back to topic; even if 601 and 627 (please accept my apologies for wrongfully identifying that second unit in earlier postings) are returned to service, they likely will have new road #'s.


627 has already been written off and will not return to service. The 601 was said that it might, but during a closer inspection the thing looks a lot worse up close than what it looks in photos. I wonder if they will try to fuse the two units together to make one since the 627 really only has damage on one end. The rest of the body is perfect.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:17 pm

Mr. Approach, as I recall the two AEM-7's that found themselves "touching pilots head to head" atop HGB became one unit.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:50 pm

liftedjeep wrote:
ApproachMedium wrote:The last major area fatal crash where a locomotive was wrecked and returned to service they change the cab number.

MNCR 225, the P32 in the fatal Spuyten Duyvil wreck has been rebuilt and is back in service without renumbering.

When LIRR had the massacre at Merillon Avenue, the M-3 pair where it all happened was renumbered as well.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:"Also, funny how airlines have a way of retiring flight numbers after a fatal incident. Find me a United 93 or an American 191, if you can.
Yet Regional 94 still makes its run from Newport News to Boston each weekday.
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Re: ACS-64 Sprinter Testing, Developments, & Sightings

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:07 am

Am I correct in presuming that the "Beagles" are now allowing Mechanical to touch 601 and 627?

Obviously there is no third party from which to seek recovery as Amtrak "owns" both Frankford and Chester.

OK, so maybe Amtrak can presently "make ends meet" with a fleet of 68 active units, but how about when they need to be withdrawn from service for "heavies" such as were AEM-7's when they were rebuilt?

It is true that so long as there remains an open production line (the SEPTA and maybe MARC orders), Amtrak has options, and somebody at Mechanical is eyeing those spare parts the way Murphy (neighbor's Goldendoodle whom I baby sit) eyes a pizza I every so often have (and saying "Dr. Brooks, what you don't know...") :-D :-D
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