Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, gprimr1, Amtrak67 of America, Tadman

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Arlington » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:47 am

$900m sounds like a great start, especially if matched by the other stakeholders--Probably enough to create tunnel launch points on both sides of the river.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn
Arlington
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Medford MA (was Arlington MA and Arlington VA)

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:56 am

Mr. Arlington, let us hope that appropriation is properly safeguarded so that it doesn't end up repairing Andy and Chris' highways.
Gilbert B Norman
 
Posts: 12833
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:52 am
Location: Clarendon Hills, IL (BNSF Aurora Sub; MP 18.71)

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby mtuandrew » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:27 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Arlington, let us hope that appropriation is properly safeguarded so that it doesn't end up repairing Andy and Chris' campaign funds.

Fixed that for you, Gil :-D

I can't seem to find the original cost of the PRR/LIRR New York Tunnel Extension - how does it compare (adjusted for inflation) with said $900m?
User avatar
mtuandrew
 
Posts: 4014
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 am
Location: the Manassas Gap Independent Line

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Ridgefielder » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:23 am

mtuandrew wrote:
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Arlington, let us hope that appropriation is properly safeguarded so that it doesn't end up repairing Andy and Chris' campaign funds.

Fixed that for you, Gil :-D

I can't seem to find the original cost of the PRR/LIRR New York Tunnel Extension - how does it compare (adjusted for inflation) with said $900m?

I'd have to check my copy of Conquering Gotham to get the figure for the New York Tunnels & Terminals Extension. However using the official US Govt stats, $1 in 1913 (the earliest year for which they have figures) would be the equivalent of $25.05 in 2017. So if someone else out there gets to it before me, you can use that as your factor for adjusting.

Couple things would probably complicate the comparison.

First, the New York Extension included not just the North and East River tubes and Penn Station itself but also Sunnyside Yard, the New York Connecting Railroad and the Hell Gate Bridge. So whatever figure you find is going to be skewed upward.

Second, and skewing it downward, is Manhattan real estate. The PRR bought a lot of it for Penn Station and its associated yards. And the cost of that has increased by a lot more than 25x in the last 110 years.

One other thing to consider when looking at any historical construction costs & time-- our great-grandfathers had a somewhat shall we say "different" view of the appropriate amount of time and money that should be allocated to worker safety...
Ridgefielder
 
Posts: 2299
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: Harlem Division MP 15

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby bdawe » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:56 am

Wikipedia, citing a book citing an ICC report puts the cost of "the station and associated tunnels" at $114 million dollars to the Pennsylvania Railroad by it's opening in 1910 for full service.

Using the conventional consumer price index, that amounts to $2.97 Billion
Using the "consumer bundle", that amounts to $6.19 Billion
Scaling against labor value, it amounts to between $12.6 Billion (unskilled wage) to $20.8 Billion (skilled wage)
Relative to GDP per Capita it would work out to $18 billion
B. Dawe's map of routes and urban populations https://brendandawe.carto.com/viz/80b9d ... /embed_map NOW updated with 2016 Canadian Populations
User avatar
bdawe
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:06 pm
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby n2cbo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:22 pm

bdawe wrote:Wikipedia, citing a book citing an ICC report puts the cost of "the station and associated tunnels" at $114 million dollars to the Pennsylvania Railroad by it's opening in 1910 for full service.

Using the conventional consumer price index, that amounts to $2.97 Billion
Using the "consumer bundle", that amounts to $6.19 Billion
Scaling against labor value, it amounts to between $12.6 Billion (unskilled wage) to $20.8 Billion (skilled wage)
Relative to GDP per Capita it would work out to $18 billion


Then add on the NJ & NY Corrupt Lawmaker surcharge (in other words kickbacks or bribes) it would add at least another billion$

Then add on all of the "Environmental Impact Studies" and then double the cost ... 8^)
n2cbo
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:29 pm

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby bdawe » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:31 pm

n2cbo wrote:
Then add on the NJ & NY Corrupt Lawmaker surcharge (in other words kickbacks or bribes) it would add at least another billion$

Then add on all of the "Environmental Impact Studies" and then double the cost ... 8^)


Eh, Corrupt NY & NJ lawmakers were also a thing in 1910. I don't know how Tamanny Hall scales with inflation
B. Dawe's map of routes and urban populations https://brendandawe.carto.com/viz/80b9d ... /embed_map NOW updated with 2016 Canadian Populations
User avatar
bdawe
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:06 pm
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby east point » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm

Boring from the NY end may not be possible due to handling spoil ? Only a dire emergency such as one of the old bores shut down could allow for the disruption of boring from NY as well. Then again the building of 2 more TBMs would be limiting in time of construction ?
east point
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:50 pm

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby Scalziand » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:09 pm

Hasn't stopped the 7 extension or Second Ave tunnels. They will have plenty of access at the NY side until the second phase of the Hudson yards project gets built out. Seeing as they were able to work with Related to get the first part of the approach tunnel done before the first phase built over it, I think they'll be able to work something out as long as the tunnel doesn't get delayed too much.
Scalziand
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: Naugatuck

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby gokeefe » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:42 pm

At least the project is moving forward and has some startup funding in place.
gokeefe
User avatar
gokeefe
 
Posts: 9701
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: Winthrop, Maine

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby n2cbo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:02 pm

bdawe wrote:
n2cbo wrote:
Then add on the NJ & NY Corrupt Lawmaker surcharge (in other words kickbacks or bribes) it would add at least another billion$

Then add on all of the "Environmental Impact Studies" and then double the cost ... 8^)


Eh, Corrupt NY & NJ lawmakers were also a thing in 1910. I don't know how Tamanny Hall scales with inflation


Yes, but back then it was funded by the PRR not the US Government...
n2cbo
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:29 pm

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby bdawe » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:20 pm

In those days PRR was bigger than the US Government
B. Dawe's map of routes and urban populations https://brendandawe.carto.com/viz/80b9d ... /embed_map NOW updated with 2016 Canadian Populations
User avatar
bdawe
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:06 pm
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby gokeefe » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:23 pm

east point wrote:About the coring work going on. The more coring's done the better Amtrak and any contractor can bid on the project. As well alignment may be slightly different and maybe some parts deeper ?


One would think that this information is critical to operation of a TBM ... If you don't know the geological conditions it will be impossible to correctly equip the TBM.
gokeefe
User avatar
gokeefe
 
Posts: 9701
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: Winthrop, Maine

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby EuroStar » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 am

gokeefe wrote:One would think that this information is critical to operation of a TBM ... If you don't know the geological conditions it will be impossible to correctly equip the TBM.

The rig is close to a location where the line will be on viaduct. The tunnel will not begin until the line has crossed US1/9 going east. There is no way it has anything to do with the TBMs. If my guess is correct that the rig is actually related to the Gateway Project then the only thing that I can think of is to determine how deep the supports of the viaduct will need to go (and also probably what kind of supports would be appropriate for the job).
EuroStar
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:26 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

Postby EuroStar » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:35 pm

The cost of the tunnels went up by about $3.2B as per this article https://www.wsj.com/articles/rising-gateway-tunnel-price-tag-could-cost-port-authority-800-million-1506510001. It is behind a paywall, so here is a quote.
Rising estimates for the new Gateway rail tunnel under the Hudson River could cost the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey an additional $800 million, according to statements made by a trustee of the agency tasked with building Gateway.

Elsewhere in the article it is said that the Port Authority is responsible for 25% of the budget. The previous authorization was for $2.7B, with the $800M, that is $3.5B times four and the total cost is currently at $14B. Note that this is just for the tunnel, not the whole Gateway with Penn South and the quad tracking to Newark Penn. In my opinion another few billion in cost increases are likely to delay the project indefinitely (officially it will not be cancelled, but as long as it is not funded it might as well be) until failure in the existing infrastructure occurs.
EuroStar
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:26 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere

PreviousNext

Return to Amtrak

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests