More trouble for Amtrak's Acela Express

[NellieBly]

Southwest Airlines has just begun flying nonstop between BWI and Logan Airport in Boston, and is scheduled to start service between PHL and BOS in January. I'm planning a business trip to Boston, leaving from the Washington area. I priced out Acela Express, and Amtrak has just lowered the fare. But Southwest is selling tix for $39 each way, less than a third of what Amtrak is charging for a 6.5 hour ride (if on time). But it gets better. I'll be returning to PHL, and Amtrak actually wants to charge more BOS -- PHL than they are asking for WAS -- BOS. They'll need to enjoy it while they can, because I have no doubt I'll be seeing $39 fares on Southwest starting in January.

With all due respect to those on this board who say they will *never* fly, when the air trip is an hour and a half versus six and a half on the train, and when the air fare is 40% of the train fare, most rational people will fly.

Amtrak is going to take a beating.

[David Benton]

and how long fo you expect the $ 39 fares to last ???

[Greg Moore]

Southwest Airlines has just begun flying nonstop between BWI and Logan Airport in Boston, and is scheduled to start service between PHL and BOS in January. I'm planning a business trip to Boston, leaving from the Washington area. I priced out Acela Express, and Amtrak has just lowered the fare. But Southwest is selling tix for $39 each way, less than a third of what Amtrak is charging for a 6.5 hour ride (if on time). But it gets better. I'll be returning to PHL, and Amtrak actually wants to charge more BOS -- PHL than they are asking for WAS -- BOS. They'll need to enjoy it while they can, because I have no doubt I'll be seeing $39 fares on Southwest starting in January.

With all due respect to those on this board who say they will *never* fly, when the air trip is an hour and a half versus six and a half on the train, and when the air fare is 40% of the train fare, most rational people will fly.

Amtrak is going to take a beating.

I'd actually be surprised if you find many $39 fares for those routes. I've been flying the BWI-ALB route for 2 years now and very rarely find anything that cheap and that's a similar distance and to an extent, similar route. Also, on the $39 fare, you'll often find a number of restrictions (though to be fair SWA restrictions tend to be minimal compared to most airlines).

That said, for the PHL-BOS route, I'd probably do the plane too. But not based so much on price.

[MudLake]

Southwest Airlines has just begun flying nonstop between BWI and Logan Airport in Boston, and is scheduled to start service between PHL and BOS in January. I'm planning a business trip to Boston, leaving from the Washington area. I priced out Acela Express, and Amtrak has just lowered the fare. But Southwest is selling tix for $39 each way, less than a third of what Amtrak is charging for a 6.5 hour ride (if on time). But it gets better. I'll be returning to PHL, and Amtrak actually wants to charge more BOS -- PHL than they are asking for WAS -- BOS. They'll need to enjoy it while they can, because I have no doubt I'll be seeing $39 fares on Southwest starting in January.

With all due respect to those on this board who say they will *never* fly, when the air trip is an hour and a half versus six and a half on the train, and when the air fare is 40% of the train fare, most rational people will fly.

Amtrak is going to take a beating.

I guess it depends on how many people are taking the Acela from Philadelphia to Boston in the first place. My hunch is Amtrak would state that trips of that length are a relatively small proportion of Acela's total. But that's for them to say, not me.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Yes it appears that there is a change in the Southwest business model now that Burple 737's are hitting the tarmac at likes of KBOS and KLGA.

But by the same token, the Acela business model did not foresee that the low cost carriers would compete on Corridor routes. As far as the "legacies' go, USAir let loose they 'were in the Shuttle market to stay", but with the same breath, they effectively abandoned their hub at KLAS and killed their overseas routes operated from KPHL. Will their Shuttle be far behind?

Burple: heard that one from a Southwest employee

Finally, I think Amtrak accepts that Acela is at a disadvantage on any segment involving both a NYP layover and running the entire length of Metro North, but markets such as STM-BOS are "theirs". That Acela is reportedly "in the market' for NYP-WAS is commendable.

[Suburban Station]

Southwest Airlines has just begun flying nonstop between BWI and Logan Airport in Boston, and is scheduled to start service between PHL and BOS in January. I'm planning a business trip to Boston, leaving from the Washington area. I priced out Acela Express, and Amtrak has just lowered the fare. But Southwest is selling tix for $39 each way, less than a third of what Amtrak is charging for a 6.5 hour ride (if on time). But it gets better. I'll be returning to PHL, and Amtrak actually wants to charge more BOS -- PHL than they are asking for WAS -- BOS. They'll need to enjoy it while they can, because I have no doubt I'll be seeing $39 fares on Southwest starting in January.

With all due respect to those on this board who say they will *never* fly, when the air trip is an hour and a half versus six and a half on the train, and when the air fare is 40% of the train fare, most rational people will fly.

Amtrak is going to take a beating.

Amtrak really dropped the ball on buying boutique trainsets. thre's a decent market for the 5 hour ride to Boston from Philly but it's so expensive. Worse still, on the lower end it's actually cheaper and faster to take connecting bolt buses to ny then to boston than a regional.

[CNJ]

Amtrak is going to take a beating.

Just keep repeating that to yourself when you are on ground stop at Boston, LaGuardia or Philadelphia.

[Matt Johnson]

Amtrak really dropped the ball on buying boutique trainsets.

Are you saying that if they had purchased off the shelf equipment, the fares would be lower? I wish that had been possible, but we all know the deal with the FRA regs. I wish Amtrak could purchase a new high speed EMU like the Velaro or the Alstom AGV for the Northeast Corridor.

[matawanaberdeen]

What Amtrak needs is new dedicated high speed rail tracks so they could use a Alstom AGV. That would compete with Airplanes for sure but beyond that,that's what Amtrak needs. True High Speed Rail from Boston to Wash. 223 MPH,how long would it take to go to Washington even with stops? Its what Amtrak needs but will never get. JC

[pablo]

Let's stay with what we know, the new Southwest service, and not what shoulda been. Muchas gracias.

Dave Becker

[ne plus ultra]

and how long fo you expect the $ 39 fares to last ???

I just tried a booking. I'm not really clear whether it's kosher to mention exact airfares here, since it's apparently not kosher to mention rail fares, so I'll just say that with fees, a SW round trip Boston-Philadelphia Jan. 19 and Jan. 26 could be yours for more than 6 times the price mentioned above (more than 3 times that for one-way). I don't know where $39 came from, but clearly it's not just the normal fare.

The real SW fares are comparable to Acela business class for the same dates, as of right now, and the Amtrak regional fare kills SW. And the regional I'm looking at makes the trip in 5 hours, not 6, as the original poster stated.

I'm sure SW will get some travelers, but I don't think Amtrak has much to worry about. Somebody got suckered by an advertising campaign!

(In the course of looking that up, I ran into another idiocy of the Amtrak website, though ... even after the redesign, if you put in a normal city pair, it returns an error if you haven't specified which station. But there IS NO train from Philadelphia to Boston North Station. It was EVEN MORE annoying when I was trying to check my Denver-Chgo train, and it kept asking me whether I wanted to depart from the Denver train station, or the Denver bus station. How come Amtrak can't figure out that if I'm only booked on the train, I want to leave from the train station?)

[ZephyrHogHead]

so i just got curious about this whole thing. so i decided to look up what it would cost to go from BWI to Boston on SWA vs. Amtrak. here is what i see.

first off the original poster said his trip was originating out of the washington area. so lets just assume that means a 30 min drive on a good day to BWI. then you have to arrive at least an hour and half early. (i do the 2 hr rule of thumb) but lets use hour and half. then you have to get off the plane and get in a cab and take a ride say down town. i dont know how long that takes but lets say from the time you get off the plane with no baggage wait, till you get a cab and arrive at destination. now you have used lets say 10 mins to walk outside, get cab, 20 min ride into town with good traffic to downtown. thats 30 mins there.

the flight is 1 hr 22 mins. departs at 0730. this means you should be at the airport and in security line no later than 0600. now lets account for a 30 min drive and a 1 hour time to get shower and dressed. by the time you are in line you are all ready at 1hr and half time up including drive time. now you get through the strip search. plane leaves presumably "on time" being it is winter BIG IF!!!!! now you fly 1 hr 25 mins. now you have been up 2 hrs 55 mins all is going well. now you have your say 30 min cab ride if not 40 accounting for time to get off the plane, walk outside, get cab and drive time. so lets say 30 mins, youre very lucky this morning! now you are 3 hrs 25 mins inot your trip and have arrived at the location. another say 10 mins to get out of cab, and get to the meeting room. now you are at 3 hrs 35 mins. so now you have arrived! ok great! so out of 3 hrs 35min you have been able to get a cat nap of most likely 40 mins out of the 1 hr 25 min flight! ALL FOR 39 bucks IF you book right now and it is listed as a "wanna get away" fare being that it is a thursday. so out of 3 hrs 35 mins you are now at 3hrs you have been awake and traveling. IF you got the 40 mins of sleep and IF there were no traffic problems to or from airports and no weather delays.

now, on the other hand. you board regional train 170 at BWI rail station at 0530. so you still have the an hour and half time that you have been up. BUT, once you get on the train you have 7hrs 3 mins until you arrive boston back bay. so you get on the train and settle in. next thing you know you are passed out in the quiet car, etc. you wake up some where north of philly. lets say NYP. so now you have a couple hrs of sleep behind you. you figure lets get something to eat. go to the lounge care, get a breakfast sandwhich, go back to your seat and eat. now you are waking up. you get your lap top out or go over some documents etc. youre feeling awake and rested now despite getting up so early. next thing you know, you are at boston back bay. now youre down town. maybe only a couple blocks walk from where you are to go to your meeting, etc. have a nice brisk walk, take in some air and bang you have arrived. all be it you just spent 7 hrs 3 mins on the train, you have gotten some rest, a small not excellent breakfast, yet something in your stomach, and a cup of coffee. you had some time to review the documents reagarding the meeting, etc. and now after walking to the building you feel rested and ready to go. sounds a lot better than the 3 hrs you have been awake traveling by plane for what...... 67 bucks cheaper.

lets not forget....... this whole scenario is all based on purchasing a ticket NOW for a JAN 14th flight with the get away internet discount price of 39 bucks. i dont see amtrak offering some special internet price at 85!!! and if you go with southwest for the "anytime fare it is 135, and it is 150 for business select!!!

i would say this. unless you have far advance notice and will be flying on an "off peak" day. you MAY get the 39 rate. but most likely, the train will be very competitively priced. all though it may take longer people are more conscious about how far their dollar will got right now than how fast they will get to Boston.

[MudLake]

And if your meeting is in downtown Boston (big assumption right there) at 10:30 or 11 AM, what are you going to do? Options are to take the Night Owl or pay an extra $200 for a hotel. Amtrak knows this which is why I doubt they even worry about competing on the longer NEC city pairs. They focus on WAS-NYP and BOS-NYP which makes more sense.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Mr. Hoghead et al, this is simply the classic SWA business model of entering a market, offering giveaway fares on selected flights, then "adjusting" upward those fares to meet market conditions. That Ms. Bly "got lucky' for her upcoming trip to Boston, I guess is a "more power to her' situation.

As I noted earlier, there are many a segment generating meaningful traffic volume in which Acela owns the premium travel market; some coming to mind are NYP-PHL; PHL-WAS, STM-BOS. But as I also noted, any segment involving travel through NYP and its 15" station time and Metro North's NRC-NHV tracks with its 70mph speeds (save that 5 miles of 90 through Larchmont and Mamaroneck - never did know how to spell it, even though I was born and raised in that neck of the woods) Acela is at a disadvantage.

While likely the location of the airports with KLGA being to the North (well more compass East) of Midtown and KDCA being to the South of Capitol Hill, Federal agency offices, and the K Street lobbyists, Acela apparently is "in the market' for NYP-WAS trips. Again I note that is commendable, and a real 'feather in Amtrak's cap".

[x-press]

With all due respect to those on this board who say they will *never* fly, when the air trip is an hour and a half versus six and a half on the train, and when the air fare is 40% of the train fare, most rational people will fly.

Amtrak is going to take a beating.

I guess it depends on how many people are taking the Acela from Philadelphia to Boston in the first place. My hunch is Amtrak would state that trips of that length are a relatively small proportion of Acela's total. But that's for them to say, not me.

Exactly. Savvy riders know that no matter how crowded the train is, you will almost always get your choice of seats if traveling through NYP, due to the passenger turnover there. That was true before anyone ever heard of Southwest Airlines, and will likely be true long after they start serving these points, promotional fares or not.

It's simply a matter of acknowledging that people going "all the way" are more of a niche market, but the train should continue to run to serve the intermediate points. Sound familiar? Yes, that's right. To me, Washington-Boston is almost an "honorary long distance route." Having (somewhat) reliable service and wires overhead does not change that.

As a card-carrying "rational person," the fares may lead me to fly BWI-Boston, then transfer to the Downeaster for my annual trip to Maine next summer (not because flying all the way to Portland is all that much more expensive, but the bus transfer to continue north is much easier from the train station than from the airport).