VT Burlington - Montpelier - St. Albans Commuter Rail

General discussion of passenger rail proposals and systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:11 pm

hardest is making them ADA compliant as it will be a new service.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby SemperFidelis » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:39 pm

I love the RDC, but the things are going to be going on 70 years old before this is up and running. I suppose they did thier research, but there had to be newer and more cost efficient ways to go.

Dutch makes a good point about ADA compliance. Certainly the many dozens of retired Arrow cars would have been a better match for this service, despite requiring a locomotive.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby B&M 1227 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:55 pm

they have traps right? what else is involved in ADA compliancy besides mini-highs?
Did we ever hear a music sweeter than the one that thrills, as it floats along the Deerfield, as it echoes o'er the hills.
How we watch that little engine as it stalks across the plain; was there ever music sweeter, was there ever sight completer, than the coming of the train?
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:53 am

Other thread about this in Gen. Railfan: viewtopic.php?f=137&t=160261.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:35 pm

level boarding vestibules big enough for a wheel chair to make a turn, doors including interior doors no less than 32", handicap bathroom . etc etc
https://www.access-board.gov/guidelines ... nd-systems

add to that the cars will have to be equipped with PTC, not easy when car barely shunts due to it having disk brakes and no good way to keep debris of wheel treads.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby B&M 1227 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:17 pm

I believe this section of VTR and NECR is unsignalled paper railroad. I forget what the qualifications of PTC is... something about 12 or more trains per day? Is there a speed requirement? Is it required on all upstart rail service?
Did we ever hear a music sweeter than the one that thrills, as it floats along the Deerfield, as it echoes o'er the hills.
How we watch that little engine as it stalks across the plain; was there ever music sweeter, was there ever sight completer, than the coming of the train?
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby Cowford » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:48 pm

Could you the reaction you'd get if you decide to start an airline featuring a fleet of DC-6s salvaged from the Arizona desert? This is a non-starter.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:52 pm

PTC requirement is for passenger trains traveling on any track were other trains could be present, same is if any trains carry Hazmat it does not even have to be a passenger train.
and no waivers system must be in place Dec 31 2018 with only waivers for delays if significant amount if work is completed, on new operations system must be in place on start.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:15 am

B&M 1227 wrote:I believe this section of VTR and NECR is unsignalled paper railroad. I forget what the qualifications of PTC is... something about 12 or more trains per day? Is there a speed requirement? Is it required on all upstart rail service?


It would most definitely trigger the mandate on raw trains per day on the Conn River where NECR, PAS, crossing VRS traffic, the Vermonter round trip, and slack run-as-directed slots for the freights collectively already scrape up against the limit. And would run afoul of VTrans' plans for Amtrak north-of-Springfield service increases per the NNEIRI study by triggering the mandate on the Conn River AND requiring signalization of the 50 miles of NECR dark territory from WRJ to St. Albans first...before the state can coordinate plans and funding sources with its partners in MA and CT. Thus, this proposal risks making some powerful enemies in state gov't by trying to jump all the work the NNEIRI study committee has done for what appears to be just "Me first" bragging rights.

This thing, like most threadbare private CR startups, has no shot. And not just because--like most threadbare private CR startups--it's setting itself up for immediate failure by promising more than it can ever reasonably deliver. Genessee & Wyoming knows too well that the Vermonter butters NECR's bread, and that enacting any part of the NNEIRI study's service increases buys them a new round of lucrative freight upgrades on the public dime. There is no way the main private-stakeholder players like them are going to let this outfit cut in line if it upsets VTrans' well-laid plans for add'l frequencies and compromises the narrow paths they have to toe for funding them. That's freight infrastructure $$$ right out of G&W's pocket if someone steps all over the NNEIRI's toes...and there is zero chance a conglomerate that huge and that focused on the long view for its portfolio is going to risk that.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby MEC407 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:12 am

Cowford wrote:...start an airline featuring a fleet of DC-6s salvaged from the Arizona desert?


That's only slightly whackier than Guilford's attempt at aviation. :wink:
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby Otto Vondrak » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:01 pm

SemperFidelis wrote:I love the RDC, but the things are going to be going on 70 years old before this is up and running. I suppose they did thier research, but there had to be newer and more cost efficient ways to go.


The Budd RDC is a solid and reliable design, and the cars in DART (Trinity Rail Express) service have been recently rebuilt and refurbished. They were in use up until a couple of years ago, only replaced by conventional trainsets. DART has no need for "off-peak" shuttles, and so they have largely just sat around. I remember riding the DART service in those cars, I couldn't believe how great the interiors looked after rebuild, no worn vinyl seats like the old MTA cars you may be thinking of. My opinion is that if you are going to start something, the ex-DART cars are not a bad way to go.

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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby p42thedowneaster » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:56 am

Would it be possible to operate the railroad as a "heritage" operation (with a convenient commuter schedule)? Perhaps a nice "dining RDC" could even bring more revenue.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:13 pm

p42thedowneaster wrote:Would it be possible to operate the railroad as a "heritage" operation (with a convenient commuter schedule)? Perhaps a nice "dining RDC" could even bring more revenue.


You can't get around the ADA and FRA through artful rebranding. It's at its core a commuter service, not a leisure service...regardless of what *minor* overlap may exist. And it's an all-new upstart, not an existing excursion carrier looking to diversify into general-purpose transit. You need full ADA door/aisle widths and accomodations for wheelchairs as an upstart. Not a hard thing to mod an RDC for, but also not a zero-cost item where you can just run a museum's untouched vintage unit as-is.

And it is most definitely not a vector for evading the PTC mandate, which this one would trigger at 8-figure cost any which way. That's what ends up instantly sinking this proposal long before other considerations. When you're above the daily cap on allowable movements, you're over the cap and that's that. No way to "rebrand" around sharing traffic with PAS, NECR, and Amtrak as far as the PTC trigger is concerned.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby DutchRailnut » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:07 pm

For ADA purpose a vestibule has to be 42" wide and doors including interior a minimum of 32" wide, main obstacle in RDC is on both ends of car the electrical locker is behind Engineers seat.
And bathrooms are about size of a shoe closet.
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Re: VT company buys DMUs for future commuter rail

Postby Narrowgauger » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:30 pm

My wife reminded me that a couple years ago when we were in Dallas we rode one of these Buddliners and there was a young man with MS in a wheelchair riding in an area for wheelchairs. While I dont remember him getting off he did so before us. There fore Im guessing they are all set for service. And they were MUCH better inside and out than the B&M and NH ones I rode in.
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