CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

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CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby conrailsharedassets » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:52 pm

Hi Everyone,

I am creating this Topic, as I see a need for there to be a Topic opened to discuss happenings, news, etc. on CP/D&H operations in New York State. The CP/D&H is likely to play a very important role in current and future happenings in New York State and this would be a good place to discuss them all!

Jim Cerulli
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby K4Pacific » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:10 am

CP Conductor hirings close today in Binghamton.
Proficient on the Southern Tier Line, The former PRR Elmira Branch, A little LV, A lot of EL, And of course, the Corning Secondary. Someone always knows more than me. Remember the Binghamton yardmaster that routinely said in a high voice, "No! No! No! That's not what I told you to do!"?
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby conrailsharedassets » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:25 pm

Wow that was a quick hiring period K4! I can't hardly believe they are hiring more crews, they just called back all the guys who have been layed off since mid 09' and they still apparently need more! They have plenty of crews to run what they are running now, so I presume some additional CP traffic is the pipeline as well for the D&H.

I have been told that with the track/infastructure upgrades that will be taking place, that work extra's will be quite frequent this season. But I highly doubt new hires in C&E would be seasonal like some of the MOW staff they have hired.

Jim Cerulli
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby EMDSD40-2 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:37 pm

conrailsharedassets wrote:Wow that was a quick hiring period K4! I can't hardly believe they are hiring more crews, they just called back all the guys who have been layed off since mid 09' and they still apparently need more! They have plenty of crews to run what they are running now, so I presume some additional CP traffic is the pipeline as well for the D&H.

I have been told that with the track/infastructure upgrades that will be taking place, that work extra's will be quite frequent this season. But I highly doubt new hires in C&E would be seasonal like some of the MOW staff they have hired.

Jim Cerulli


Many of the furloughed workers have declined the call to come back. On average, only 1-3 out of each 9-14 person class decided to return. Many had been furloughed for almost two years and had found other jobs in the meantime. After having seen how volatile the job security is and having found more secure jobs during their two year "vacation", many of these employees decided that they wanted to stay where they were, even if it meant a large reduction in pay. Because the D&H traffic is coming back and having many people refusing the calls, the railroad has reached the end of the furloughed roster list and needs more people. I hope I made sense.
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby K4Pacific » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:54 pm

I concur with EMD. The Disney Song, "A Pirates Life for Me" could be changed to "An Extras Life for Me". The rigors of the extra board are taxing for the pay grade for many. Still, expect more traffic. Track upgrades are desprately needed to continue to keep a fluent 50 mph where possible.

Does Cerulli know the status of that new siding on the Sundbury?
Proficient on the Southern Tier Line, The former PRR Elmira Branch, A little LV, A lot of EL, And of course, the Corning Secondary. Someone always knows more than me. Remember the Binghamton yardmaster that routinely said in a high voice, "No! No! No! That's not what I told you to do!"?
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby 161pw165 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:22 pm

Would the additional traffic from routing the CSX Montreal traffic onto CP/D&H factor into this also?
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby conrailsharedassets » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:12 pm

EMDSD40-2 that did indeed make alot of sense. I haven't even thought of that. You can only be out of work for so long before you decide to find another job. Not being one myself, I guess I truly don't understand the life a railroader lives personally but having a bunch of friends in the industry I get a pretty good idea.

K4 so far I have heard CP/NS engineering officials have been working on plans for a 2 mile signaled controlled siding at Catawissa (around M.P. 730 ish or so on the Sunbury Sub). I haven't heard too much more other than they would really like to get it done this year or early next year at the latest. That siding is needed to split a 35 mile gap of single iron down there if they want to add capacity to the line.

Also K4 CP's current timetable track speed does not exceed 40mph for freight on the D&H. I'm not sure if you have heard whether or not they want to upgrade to 50mph track or not in the spots its possible (I know south of Binghamton (especially on the DL&W north of Scranton and PRR south of Buttonwood) there is alot of room for trains to stretch there legs at 50 + easy. I guess 50mph as much as possible is what NS would be most happy with CP having if NS is planning on running any somewhat time sensitive intermodal business in the future.

161pw165 I have actually heard that CSX is no longer interested in switching the tonnage from the Montreal Sub to the CP/D&H. In fact they have plans to upgrade the Montreal Sub and ramp up competition with the CP/D&H routing from what I have been told. So i dont believe crew hiring is part of that, but I guess I could be wrong as things change by the day on the railroad.

Jim Cerulli
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby 161pw165 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:33 am

Thanks, Jim. I didn't know CSX apparently reversed itself w/ the Montreal Sub. Wasn't that originally a consideration for CP giving them the traffic to Oak Point?
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby conrailsharedassets » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:46 pm

161pw165 that indeed was the deal. CSX ran CP's NYC traffic and CP took CSX train Q620/621 onto a D&H routing through Rouses Point, NY. However I have heard that even though CSX has taken over the fresh pond traffic, they aren't interested (at least at the moment) in switching the Q620/621 trains over to the D&H. I'm not sure if this would in turn require CP to eventually take back their own NYC traffic on the Metro routing.

My friend was just hired as a signal maintaner with CSX and he was told his territory will include the River Line out of NJ and the Montreal Secondary to Massena, NY. He told me he will start work on the PTC installation on the River Line soon and then work towards the Montreal Secondary where it sounds like they will be installing CTC (w/ PTC) Signal System (but he doesn't know for sure quite yet). To be honest I'm very confused with the whole situation. If CSX is looking to compete for (time sensitive) tonnage to and from Montreal, I don't think its gonna happen. The D&H is a much more direct and faster routing for tonnage out of the south. With additional upgrades and improvements planned, CP will further cement the route as the more premier East Coast route to Canada. But time will tell I guess what will happen...

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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby frank754 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:32 pm

I'm not an expert on the D&H current affairs, but live in Wilkes-Barre (formerly Binghamton area), and it seems they route the freights down from Binghamton to Pittston, then onto the Reading & Northern through Mountaintop and along the ex-CNJ line through White Haven & Jim Thorpe onto the NS at Lehighton and from there to Philadelphia. I was down to take the tourist train at Jim Thorpe in the late fall, and we were delayed by a CP freight. Caught a few shots of it along the way. An employee told me that business was improving all the time, and that day had 2 CP freights come through there. I noticed the UP cars were hauling new automobiles from Canada. I seem to recall another thread here that had the symbol numbers and so forth, but it seems to have become a real fine operation in recent years.
Among these 3 pages are a few shots of a CP freight, if you sift through the other stuff.
http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/wbrail.html
http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/lehigh1.html
http://viewoftheblue.com/photography/lehigh2.html
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby conrailsharedassets » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:27 pm

Hi Frank754,

The D&H South of Binghamton is quite the busy railroad. Right now it averages roughly 12 trains per day between Binghamton and Taylor. 6-8 of which are CP trains and a solid 4 sometimes 5 a day are NS trackage rights trains. Between Taylor and Dupont (Pittston) there is approximately 10 per day. However only 4 of those 10 trains go onto the Reading and Northern at Dupont (Pittston) 2 NS trains (12/13T) and 2 CP trains (256/257 on Mon, Wed and Fri and 258/259 on Tue, Thur, Sat and Sun). The rest of the trains continue South of Dupont on the D&H to CP KASE (Sunbury and down the NS Buffalo Line to Harrisburg). Theres roughly 4 CP trains per day and 2 NS trackage rights trains on the stretch of the D&H between Dupont (Pittson) and Sunbury. So actually the majority of the traffic continues South of Pittston and Not over the R&N. Additionally not a single train operating over the R&N goes to Philadelphia. The CP Philadelphia traffic runs via Harrisburg which is a quicker routing (eliminating the neccessary run around move at Allentown).

I hope this helps!

Jim Cerulli
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby SecaucusJunction » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:08 pm

Although I'm not 100% sure what the CSX traffic on the Montreal Subdivision consists of, I doubt their carload traffic from the south is very time sensitive. I'd guess they made this deal to try to save themselves maintenance/operating costs on the subdivision. Where this could hurt is if they generate intermodal traffic out of NJ as PA has been pushing. A NJ-Selkirk-Montreal routing would be faster than anything the competition might be able to piece together. NS could probably try to compete now with a NJ-Binghamton-Saratoga-Montreal routing via the D&H.

Or a conspiracy theorist might say that this deal was a ploy by CP to quietly exit NYC because it was not profitable.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby conrailsharedassets » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:40 pm

I have often wondered what would happen if CSX started running NJ to Montreal Intermodal. It has been rumored and grumblings are its closer now than ever to actually happening with the Construction of a CN intermodal facility North of Massena, NY on the Canadian Side of the Border.

However CP has been working on terminal and infastructure improvements as well so it should get interesting. CP runs (via NS from Bethlehem to NJ) blocks of intermodal to and from Montreal and New Jersey already. If CP/NS were thinking ahead, they should really consider expanding and expediting this lane ASAP as it could be decent competition for CSX.

The areas I believe CP/NS hold an upper hand (especially in the near future) to CSX is for tonnage out of Philadelphia and points south to and from Montreal and upstate New York. Then again CSX somehow got the Mearsk Dockside Business off CP out of Philadelphia and although long expected to be back on a CP routing, it has still yet to happen. But I guess time will tell...

And those pesky conspiracy theorist just maybe on to something!!!

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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby SecaucusJunction » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:23 am

I would love to have our company's Canada shipments take an all water routing to NY and then get short haul railed to Montreal. Not only is sending a shipment through Vancouver port and rail across Canada very slow, it is very unpredictable, making it much harder to predict accurate arrival dates.

If NS/CP and CSX are going to really push for more intermodal to the Montreal region, they are going to need cooperation from Port Authority as well as the shipping companies. Their current combined traffic is very little. Luckily, as I had mentioned in the past, PA is pushing for more Eastern Canada traffic from Asia to go through it's ports, so it's a step in the right direction. This could be a real opportunity for the railroads, which now seem to have competitive routes.

What I can't understand is why CP/NS seems to route shipments for Ontario/Toronto via Montreal.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: CP/D&H Discussion - New York State

Postby K4Pacific » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:16 pm

Avery good question SJ; as I was on my way back to the office from an B&H, WNYP meeting this afternoon, there were many tractor trailers with Hamburg Sud containers that used to run on 553 to Toronto heading west on I86. So the traffic base is still there. Also, the CRST trailers that used to ride NY100 and 2NY100 still ply I86.
Proficient on the Southern Tier Line, The former PRR Elmira Branch, A little LV, A lot of EL, And of course, the Corning Secondary. Someone always knows more than me. Remember the Binghamton yardmaster that routinely said in a high voice, "No! No! No! That's not what I told you to do!"?
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